[00:00:06] Rob: This is The Balanced Leader Podcast. The podcast that helps leaders elevate their wellbeing and create healthier workplaces. My name is Rob Hills and I am your host. In today’s episode, we dive deep into the journey from burnout to brilliance with leadership expert Trudy MacDonald. Trudy shares fascinating insights about why 38% of Australian workers are experiencing burnout. Drawing from her own experience of burnout as a CEO, and her extensive work with organisations, Trudy reveals practical strategies for building psychological safety, resetting team dynamics, and creating sustainable high performance. Whether you’re a leader worried about your team’s wellbeing or feeling the strain yourself, this episode offers valuable insights for creating a more balanced and brilliant workplace. So let’s dive in to today’s episode with Trudy MacDonald.

[00:01:09] Rob: Welcome Trudy to the Balanced Leader Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:01:13] Trudy: It’s a pleasure, Rob.

[00:01:15] Rob: I am really excited to have you on the show today particularly as we’re diving into going from burnout to brilliance. But before we dive into that topic, can you just tell the listeners a little bit about your background and how you came to become an award winning speaker, a coach, and a leadership facilitator?

[00:01:33] Trudy: I sure can, and it’s such a pleasure to be here. I think like many people in life, when you talk about their careers, you sort of just stumble into the work that you do rather than it being a deliberate goal or ambition from the outset. But I have a background in organizational psychology, and I think that really piqued my interest around organizational performance and culture, and that very quickly took me into The space of startup organizations doing a lot of work with, with leaders, leadership development, and really starting to, to lift the bonnet on what made people tick and, and subsequently, how can we maximize performance?

[00:02:12] I think the other thing that was happening in parallel throughout that stage of my life and continues to is I’m, I’m an active athlete. So I’d been a ballet dancer for many, many years. Now I’m a competitive rower. Oh, wow. And I think that the concept of high performance is something that’s always resonated with me.

[00:02:29] So that’s become a real passion and a real interest. I’ve had wonderful opportunities to lead many organizations, both internationally and in Australia. And to work not only with some of the world’s largest organizations from a consulting perspective, but also to work with start ups and very small businesses.

[00:02:47] And one thing that I continue to remind myself of is people are people at the end of the day. It doesn’t matter what size organization or even what industry they’re in. At the end of the day, we want the same things. We’re driven by the same things. What I’m really passionate about is being able to have a real impact, not only on individuals and how they feel about themselves and their performance, but also the teams that they work in and ultimately the organisations that they’re part of.

[00:03:14] Rob: Yeah, that’s great. How then did you become interested in the topic of burnout? Is this something that occurred in your life or is it something that you see with the organisations and the people that you work with?

[00:03:25] Trudy: It’s a bit of a combination. So certainly, In the last few years, the topic of burnout has really hit the headlines on a global basis.

[00:03:34] And it’s really been since COVID that this has started to get some real, real media attention, but also attention of leaders around the world. But I think in, in understanding that so many people have been experiencing burnout, you know, It made me reflect on earlier in my career and you’re absolutely right, I have experienced burnout.

[00:03:53] It was probably about 15 years ago. And to give you some, some personal context, it was my first CEO role. I live in regional Australia and I was commuting six hours a day. Oh wow. To and from my workplace. Now, if anybody ever gave me a job description today and said, you’re going to commute six hours a day, I’d say you’ve got to be kidding.

[00:04:13] But at that stage in my life, it was it was an opportunity. It was the right thing to do. And for family reasons, I was living in regional New South Wales. But because of the distance, I was getting 30, four o’clock every morning. Commuting to work. I had a six month old child at that point in time. I was still breastfeeding and subsequently carrying around a little freezer bag.

[00:04:39] I mean, the things I did were absolutely insane. And, you know, I look back on that period now and I recognize and I’m, you know, I’m being very vulnerable here, but my, My priorities at that stage of my life were number one, work, and I feel really quite ashamed to say that at this stage of my life upon reflection, but work came first, my children came second, my husband came third, much to his despair.

[00:05:07] I came fourth, and I was suffering, and my friends and family didn’t even get a look in. And I look back on that period now and I think, you know what, I could have done a whole lot differently if I knew. what I knew now.

[00:05:20] Rob: Yeah. Thank you, Trudy. And thank you for being vulnerable and talking about your experience.

[00:05:23] I find when you’re authentic like this, it really helps people look at their own situation and maybe even ask themselves some of the hard questions. So I really appreciate your, your honesty in that answer. Was it something that triggered your thinking to think? Something’s got to change. This is not working, or was it something that just happened over a period of time that was quite gradual?

[00:05:45] Did it sort of sneak up on you if you like?

[00:05:47] Trudy: Yeah, I think it’s a great question. And I see in a moment, I’ll talk you through how we got to where we are as a society now where a huge percentage of people in Australia are experiencing burnout. But if I go back to my personal situation, it definitely crept up on me.

[00:06:03] As mentioned, my priority was work. It was my first opportunity in a true life. Leadership role, which had been an ambitious for me, ambitious ambition for me. And I’d worked very hard to get there.

[00:06:14] Rob: Mm-Hmm. .

[00:06:15] Trudy: Um, and I think, you know, you just get on the treadmill and you start to normalize a lifestyle that actually isn’t healthy.

[00:06:22] If I look back now, my cortisol levels, my stress levels were through the roof. And I was just in survival mode. And what actually triggered it for me was I started to experience the physical symptoms of burnout. I pride myself on being a very fit and very healthy person. And I started to get really sick.

[00:06:41] And I was going to the doctors and they were shaking their heads a bit perplexed. Going, you know, I’m not sure what’s going on here. But I think what’s really interesting upon reflection as well is they never asked me about stress, and they never asked me about lifestyle. They were doing a whole lot of medical tests to find out, you know, what was wrong with me, and they found nothing.

[00:07:01] Rob: So do you think that was a reflection on the period of time you’re in? Do you think nowadays, if you went to a doctor, they might be a little bit more aware about the stress because it is such a big thing in society?

[00:07:11] Trudy: Yeah, I would hope so. But let me jump into where society is today, because I think this is what really piqued my interest around burnout.

[00:07:20] Rob: Yeah.

[00:07:21] Trudy: Burnout has not been a focus for me. My focus professionally is building high performance organizations. However, I’ve recognized in the last few years, one of the barriers to that happening is actually the individual and what they’re experiencing. And the latest statistics for Australia are indicating that about 38 percent of the workforce is self reporting work related burnout.

[00:07:46] And it’s probably useful just to have a quick definition of that. There’s, there’s three key elements. There’s the physical symptoms of burnout, which are generally related to exhaustion. getting sick, not sleeping well, you’ve got the cognitive symptoms of burnout and they’re related to the inability to think beyond the moment.

[00:08:07] I’m, I’m in the day to day. I’m in the moment. I don’t have the head space. And that’s an expression a lot of people will use. I just don’t have the head space or the mind space to think strategically, to have that difficult conversation, to hold somebody accountable in my team, because I just can’t deal with that right now.

[00:08:25] And then you’ve got the social symptoms and the social symptoms are actually often related to withdrawal. I, I don’t feel like socializing. I don’t feel like hanging out with my friends or my family. And, and I’m not taking the time to connect with people on, on a meaningful level. So If 38 percent of the population is currently experiencing those symptoms, it actually becomes a real challenge for leaders.

[00:08:50] And in fact, leaders are not exempt from this. I do a lot of executive coaching of CEOs and senior leaders and In the past few years, for the first time in my career, I’ve seen more leaders than ever before saying, you know what, I’m done. I can’t do this anymore. The, the mental load and what I’ve been asked to do is, is well beyond what I’ve got capacity for.

[00:09:13] Rob: So why do you think we’re seeing this unprecedented levels of burnout? And particularly among leaders and again, another great reflection that leaders are sort of stepping back and going, I can’t like I’m done like,

[00:09:25] Trudy: yeah,

[00:09:26] Rob: it’s, it’s really an interesting period that the numbers are growing and people’s awareness around it is so high as well.

[00:09:32] Trudy: Yeah, yeah. And if I just add to that, I think, because I got really curious about it, right? So, So what I’ve, what I’ve seen across Australia post COVID is so many organisations have been very generous with their wellbeing initiatives and, and really looking after their people. I’ve, I’ve never seen list of benefits so long in my life, everything from massages to yoga classes, to educating people around wellbeing and burnout and how we can manage that.

[00:10:00] The really interesting sub statistic of that 38 percent is that approximately half of that group are working remotely.

[00:10:09] Speaker 3: And

[00:10:10] Trudy: I think there’s something in there that that’s what started to really get my interest. So, so to answer your question, how, how did we get here? I think it’s worth recognizing that COVID changed something in our mindsets.

[00:10:22] And specifically what it changed was how we feel about work. For many of us, we were just on that work treadmill as I was 15 years ago. And, you know, I knew it wasn’t right that I wasn’t spending time with family or even for myself. But I just had the mindset that this is what you’ve got to do. This is what you do professionally to get ahead.

[00:10:42] Our mindsets changed post COVID because I think we started to recognize that we’re, we’re vulnerable as a species, that there’s more to life than just work. So we’ve been through some really interesting phases and the media has been fantastic at putting big, big buzzwords around this. So your listeners will recognize terms such as the great resignation that was not long after COVID when everybody was changing jobs and Leaving the corporate world, in many cases, going and moving to regional areas, or moving into a part time executive role, which previously would have been unheard of.

[00:11:15] We then moved into the not so great resignation, where people started to stabilise a bit, but then very quickly, the term, quiet quitting, hit the headlines. And I think that was the first indication that people are change fatigued. And this is what I was hearing from a lot of leaders because there had been so much change happening in people’s personal lives.

[00:11:37] And in the workplace, particularly with this shift between working remote versus hybrid versus having to learn new ways of working and new ways of connecting, people were exhausted and that that started to create some awareness around this along with mental health issues. But then we’ve now gone into a phase that’s referred to as.

[00:12:00] Um, the great exhaustion. So this is where now globally it started to be recognized that people are actually exhausted And right now and I think this is fascinating that the current terms And it’s it’s fascinating to watch the media because I have a little chuckle, but there’s there’s truth behind it Yeah, the the great stay so people are now more motivated to stay however This is the other term that sits along pi alongside it Resenteeism.

[00:12:26] Oh, I haven’t heard that one before. It’s a classic. It’s a classic. Resenteeism. And what it refers to is employees, even though they want to stay for job security and financial reasons, many people are starting to resent their employer. Now what are they resenting? They’re resenting a few things. Number one is you’re trying to get me back into the office in some cases, and I’ve proven to you that I can work from home.

[00:12:48] So there’s, there’s a bit of that tension happening in a lot of organizations. I think that the bigger one is that. People are working hard. Now, are they productive? That’s a different question, but people are working hard. And I think part of the issue with hybrid and remote work is for a lot of people, they don’t have the separation.

[00:13:09] So the laptop sits on the kitchen bench and with all of the wonderful technology we’ve got right now, people are not switching off. So people are perceiving that they’re working harder. and subsequently feel as though they should be paid more money. However, you’ve got organisations saying, well, actually our productivity is only two thirds of what it was a few years ago.

[00:13:30] Our profits are down. We can’t actually afford to be paying you more money, nor is the performance there. So there’s a lot of tension in organisations. And, and with that, You get poor behaviours, you get interpersonal tension and conflict, and culturally, we’re starting to see across organisations there’s some real challenges starting to emerge there as well.

[00:13:53] Rob: I’m fascinated by this term, resenteeism. I’ve tried to write it down and I’m pretty sure I’ve spelled it wrong. It’s a mouthful. And what you said about it, it really made me think, yeah, okay, I can, I can definitely see that happening. So is this because it’s a mindset shift? And is this maybe even a generational thing?

[00:14:11] And I’m not sort of saying it’s all about, you know, the latest generation and their attitude towards work. But is the attitude towards work shifting, which is creating a mindset shift, which is creating this resenteeism?

[00:14:23] Trudy: Yeah, look, I got so curious about this as well. Um, there’s, there’s a few things, one and sorry, and there’s another term I need to share another classic with you, which is Hushed hybrid.

[00:14:34] Ooh, hushed hybrid. Now, yeah, right. So what, what this one means is a lot of organizations have policies in place around hybrid work arrangements. So two days from home, three days in the office, for example, a lot of leaders are actually not complying with those policies. So, it’s harsh, just like, shh, don’t tell anyone, but we’re going to work from home an extra day, me included.

[00:14:57] And that’s creating tension and conflict, because you’ve got some leaders that are abiding by the policies, and then they’re looking across the corridor going, hang on, that team’s not following the rules. And that’s creating a bit of resenteeism and challenge as well. Yeah, right. Which, which is interesting.

[00:15:14] Yeah, definitely. Now, Rob, what was the question that you asked me?

[00:15:16] Rob: Basically, because of, you know, the experience we’re having with re resenteeism, is this because of the attitude towards work? Is that changing? And is that because of, you know, our mindset?

[00:15:27] Trudy: Yes. Yeah. So I think what’s happened is this. So post COVID, we got invited into everybody’s lounge rooms.

[00:15:35] And what happened is we had to create a much higher level of empathy and understanding for our, for our teams, for our staff. So as leaders, what we started to get schooled on very quickly is that we Had to adopt a much more humanistic approach to leadership. So no longer was an authoritarian approach.

[00:15:54] Not that that was ever a good approach to leadership, but a lot of leaders got away with it. So we had shortages in the talent market. People were walking if they weren’t feeling. engaged and connected and consulted with. So leaders started to hear very quickly, you need to be much more empathetic. You need to be much more humanistic in your approach.

[00:16:13] And many leaders did that with good intentions. We’ve lent in, we’ve supported, we’re checking in with people. We’re asking, are you okay? And this is all really, really great. However, with that, in my opinion, we’ve created a sense of entitlement. And I hear this from a lot of leaders where. Now people feel entitled that they can just work from home whenever they want to or my dog’s sick So yeah, I’ll be working from home today and I’m gonna tell you I will be working from home today because that’s an entitlement So I I think part of that shift.

[00:16:47] It’s it’s not generational. I think it’s across all generations is We’ve created habits over the past few years through this incredible period of change, and these habits have now created a new expectation. And I think one of the, the things that, that goes alongside this, which fascinates me is even though we’ve become more empathetic, a high performance organization is also an accountable organization.

[00:17:16] And I think the scales have tipped too far in the favor of empathy. And a lot of leaders have lost their ability to have effective accountability conversations. Now, how’s that connected to burnout? If you’re working in a team where people are not being held accountable, then the work comes back to individuals.

[00:17:38] We, we create inefficiencies. We don’t have role clarity. What another part of the business is doing is not setting my part of the business up to be successful And what happens is we get busy and that’s what I’m hearing from so many people. It’s a classic Aussie greeting. How are you? Oh, I’m really busy right now It used to be a badge of honor now.

[00:18:01] It just means I’m burning out This is inefficient and it’s not working and I think that’s actually one of the key root causes behind Transcribed Why we’ve landed in this space.

[00:18:11] Rob: It’s interesting you talk about entitlement. We’ve gone, we’re going out of an employee market. I think over the last couple of years, certainly maybe even just before COVID and all through it.

[00:18:22] So now I think we’re shifting towards an employer market. Yes. How do you think this is going to impact the piece around burnout and resenteeism and hush hybrid and all of those different things that are happening?

[00:18:33] Trudy: Yeah, you’re right. There’s some big shifts happening. So the latest data I’ve seen. seen is that as we come into 2025, there will be more people looking to move roles.

[00:18:44] And the key driver is actually going to be pay. It’s going to be salary. So we’ve got another macro factor sitting around all of this, which complicates it further, which is that the cost of living continues to be very, very high. And I think if you’ve got an environment where people feel as though they’re working hard, And they’re sensing or they’re perceiving they can earn more money elsewhere, even if their company can’t afford to pay them more, they’re going to be out there looking, which, which is quite interesting.

[00:19:13] Rob: And that’s going to put a lot of pressure on the market. And I think, you know, I live in Canberra, it’s a public service town, there’s a lot that the government can’t do, particularly for public service workers, around shifting salaries. So I think that’s going to create a spiralling upward effect, potentially, of salaries if people are constantly looking.

[00:19:29] But as you say, A lot of employers can’t even pay those salaries because they’re getting a little bit unrealistic.

[00:19:35] Trudy: That’s, that’s right. So, so in the work that I’m doing with leaders, I really focus on, you know, on what leaders can do and what they can control. There’s a whole lot that we can’t control.

[00:19:44] And you’re right with the shift in the market, it’s becoming more of an employer driven market. This is a really important time, I think, for leaders to reset. cultures and to reset expectations. So if you can imagine that the support and the empathy that organizations are providing for employees is at an all time high.

[00:20:07] It actually can’t go much higher in my view. It’s an opportunity to recalibrate that with empathy, with accountability rather. Now, I think what’s interesting here is for a lot of organisations, they’re scared of accountability because they think accountability is punishment. However, there’s been some real shifts in the market here, and if we can first of all change our mindset, I think it can, it can start to create some really positive change.

[00:20:36] downstream impacts on individual burnout and levels of resilience, but also the performance of the organization. Because at the end of the day, we need a win win scenario. We, there’s no point having a lot of people who are feeling high senses of wellbeing, but they’re still not productive at the end of the day, because that’s going to create a different tension point.

[00:20:54] So the first mindset shift is to recognize that accountability done well, is not punishment. It’s actually one of the most motivating things you can do for people. Because if you look at the research around what creates an environment of well being, there’s, there’s two key things that people need. They need to feel a sense of achievement and accomplishment, And that comes with accountability, right?

[00:21:20] We feel good that the dopamine triggers, it kicks off in our minds when we have a sense of achievement. We feel great around that. And the second thing that we need to create a sense of wellbeing is meaningful connection. And meaningful connection can come through accountability. You can create meaningful conversations that are high support with your leader or your manager, and that can make you feel great.

[00:21:47] But where the shift in the market has really started to, to, um, come to life is making accountability a team sport. So now you start to talk about those meaningful high support, high trust connections with your colleagues and that, if we can get that right, I think that’s going to be one of the biggest shifts to, to shifting the, the national issue we’ve got around burnout that we’re experiencing right now.

[00:22:13] Rob: Yeah, I’m absolutely agree. In your talks, you talk about going from burnout to brilliance. So in your mind, what does a brilliant team look like? Is it a team that has obviously good accountability, good connection? Yes. Are there other factors at play here as well?

[00:22:27] Trudy: Yeah, there are. So So there’s a number of different foundations that we need to build upon, and I think at the most foundational level, you’ve got the concept of trust, and also referred to as psychological safety, and a brilliant team has a high level of trust of each other, and they have a psychologically safe environment.

[00:22:51] Now, this is well researched, and I think the most recognized research around this was actually from Google. So Google globally, a number of years ago, did a five year longitudinal study, and they were trying to find the X factor amongst Google teams globally. What is it that differentiates brilliant teams at Google from average teams?

[00:23:12] So they weren’t even looking at the poor teams. They were just comparing brilliant teams to average teams. And they looked at this from a whole range of different perspectives. They had psychologists, they had business experts, they had engineers. And what came out of it was there was a significant difference in one factor and it was psychological safety.

[00:23:30] So Google’s brilliant teams globally had a high level of psychological safety. And that was the X factor. There were other things such as dependability. a real sense of purpose around what they’re doing, knowing that they’re having an impact and clarity of responsibilities. So, so I think those things make sense, but this was quite new, this concept of psychological safety and what it means practically is in a team environment, individuals feel safe taking interpersonal risks without any fear of consequences.

[00:24:08] Now, what that means practically is that I can show up to work and be my authentic self. I’m not having to posture and behave in a certain way just to fit in. So I need to feel comfortable in my own skin. That’s level one. But level two is what’s called learner safety. And that means it’s safe to step outside of my comfort zone, go into that learning zone.

[00:24:34] where I’m not always going to get it right. In fact, often I’m going to make mistakes, but I’m not going to feel blamed or punished. In fact, my mistakes are going to be celebrated as innovation, as learning, as progress. And the team’s going to lean in and we’re all going to build on that, which is going to lead to us being so much better in the future.

[00:24:53] Level three is referred to as contributor safety. And what that means is, can I have a voice? Can I dive into somebody else’s swim lane and contribute an idea? without being told just to get back in your lane. This is not your area. Back you go. So, so do we have those open debates and conversations where we’re sharing ideas without repercussions?

[00:25:15] We’re not getting offended. We’re not getting defensive. And then not surprisingly, level five is challenger safety. And what that means is, can I give feedback? Can I challenge, can I challenge the boss’s thinking or decision Knowing that the boss is going to say, you know what, thanks for taking the risk to bring that to this forum, let’s talk about it.

[00:25:36] It’s really important that you’ve shared that. Let’s as a team explore this. Is that the kind of environment you’ve got now? If you can create that in a team environment, you’ve got a really strong foundation for accountability for ownership and commitment and ultimately for getting results, which is how most leaders will measure the impact of a team.

[00:26:01] But the, the end game is a lag indicator. What we can work on are all of those things that actually get us there.

[00:26:08] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[00:26:09] Rob: And I imagine there is a few people listening to this going, yeah, okay, we’re probably at level five. There’s probably more people going, we’re at level four. There’s probably a lot of people going, we’re at level three and so on.

[00:26:20] How do people move up the levels? If they recognize that perhaps my team doesn’t have that psychological safety yet, what are some steps they can take towards progressing up the ladder?

[00:26:30] Trudy: Yeah, it’s a great question. And. And it isn’t easy, but there’s one really important thing that will shift the dial straight away.

[00:26:38] And it’s the leader of that team holding up the mirror to themselves and asking, how do I need to behave? And I love this concept. A lot of leaders have to do lists, encouraging leaders to create a to be list. Who do I want to be? What is my leadership brand? And there’s a few really important things that leaders can be that will really help build psychological safety.

[00:27:08] And the first is to be vulnerable and, and vulnerability is, it does take courage that the best leaders are vulnerable. And it’s, it’s about admitting your mistakes. It’s about not being the smartest person in the room. It’s about going to your team and saying, you know what, I’m not sure how we’re going to navigate this problem.

[00:27:27] But I reckon we can work it out as a team. So let’s talk about it. Yeah. So, so vulnerability, really, really powerful. The second really practical thing that teams can do, and there’s a whole lot of great tools out there. I’ll name one of them, DISC, it’s well known. Tools that help identify different work styles and different communication styles.

[00:27:47] And actually getting to know each other and recognizing that not everybody prioritizes what I prioritize. Not everybody is motivated by what I am motivated by, and we think differently. But together, we’ve all got strengths. They’re different. But if we bring them together, they can complement each other.

[00:28:05] So opening up the conversation around understanding our similarities, understanding our differences, and how we can work together. That builds trust, and it’s incredibly powerful because then you’ve got the foundation for creating dialogue. And it’s actually the dialogue that enables us to move into that psychologically safe zone.

[00:28:28] Often what happens is we, we engage in what’s called the fool’s choice, and the fool’s choice is I, I either be really honest with you, or I lose you as a friend or I lose our relationship and we think it’s one or the other. So if I’m going to be honest with you, well, that’s going to be the end of the relationship.

[00:28:45] So I’m just going to say nothing just to maintain the peace. And I see this so often in organizations, but then what happens is the lag time between these. critical conversations that should be happening gets longer and longer and longer. Sometimes it goes on for years and we’ve got this underlying tension and mistrust.

[00:29:03] That is not a high performing team and it’s certainly not a brilliant team.

[00:29:07] Rob: No, absolutely. And getting in early, even though it’s hard. Is often the best medicine. Yes. And I’ve seen this throughout my career where leaders put it off, put it off, put it off, and it just snowballs and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

[00:29:19] And what could have been a quite simple, easy conversation becomes such a hard one. Yes. And so much anxiety and angst around having the conversation, not to mention the loss in productivity and the team dynamics going out the window because there’s so much focus around this, um, such a good point to do that.

[00:29:35] That’s, that’s right.

[00:29:37] Trudy: Yeah. So let’s bring this back to burnout for a moment. If you’ve got a culture or an environment where people don’t feel safe to speak up and there’s that underlying tension, I get called into organizations often because there’s tension and there’s silos and there’s conflict. What happens is people are experiencing burnout because the cortisol levels, the stress hormone is through the roof and suddenly we don’t have those honest, Trusted relationships where we can ask for help or we can say, you know what, I’m struggling with this.

[00:30:07] Can we just bounce some ideas off each other? Those conversations don’t happen. So there’s no wonder people are experiencing burnout. And I think this You know, the space that we’ve moved into around hybrid and remote work, I think it’s wonderful. However, it creates the opportunity to lead differently, because unless we can deliberately create opportunities for connection, for celebration, for accountability, It can lead to some really toxic behaviors.

[00:30:37] And that’s what’s fueling burnout in my view.

[00:30:40] Rob: I imagine you’ve seen a lot of this over the years with different people and different teams that you’ve worked with. Are you able to share a story where a team or an individual has gone from being You know, burnout and recovered back to brilliance. Yeah. Is there, is there one that comes to mind?

[00:30:56] Trudy: Yeah, there are. And there’s, there’s many. This, this is the space that I operate in. So there’s an organization that, that I’m working with. I won’t name them obviously. Um, but they, They recognized that productivity was going down. They were starting to lose people. So people were resigning. And internally there was a whole lot of noise around how different parts of the business.

[00:31:22] weren’t appropriately supporting other parts of the business. So you’ve got an organisation that’s now operating in silos, there’s toxic behaviours, people are leaving as a result. They also had a situation where people were working a lot of overtime. So you’re always going to get different levels of performance.

[00:31:39] You’ve got a normal distribution. You’ve got to get those who just, you know, dig in and work harder and harder and those who throw up their hands and go, you know what, if I’m not feeling good about this place, I’m going to give you minimum effort. And that’s the quiet quitting concept that came out. So with with that organization, um, we, first of all, we actually did an engagement survey.

[00:31:58] So they They saw these issues, the leadership saw it, but the first thing we said is, look, we need to hear from your teams what’s actually going on here. And that was really powerful, because we got some really pointed insights around. What from their perspective is actually driving disengagement and leadership’s sense was right.

[00:32:20] People were highly disengaged on average. I think what’s interesting about engagement surveys is it gives you really powerful insights as to what people want. However, I use the analogy. It’s a little bit like asking young kids. What do you want for dinner? I’ll have McDonald’s. I’ll have KFC. So what what people want.

[00:32:41] isn’t necessarily always good for them, right? So if I use that analogy. So, so even though we’d done the engagement survey, I think what was useful is that gave people a voice and it created the trigger to say, okay, we need to do things differently here. But then in the work that I was doing with the leadership team, I was coaching them on the things that we knew would actually work and make a difference.

[00:33:06] So it was a bit of a top down and a bottom up approach. But one of the things that we did is we, we got the leadership team together and we started at the top of the organization. And I think this is a really important point. If you’re going to look at some kind of intervention, You need to get the leadership team working as a high performance team, because if that’s broken, you’re not going to have any success as you go down.

[00:33:29] And, and what we did is we got them together at an offsite with a few key objectives. Now, let me just take a track back because I think the messaging around this is really powerful for your listeners to hear as an idea. But the message sounded a bit like this. We’ve achieved some wonderful things over the last 12 months.

[00:33:50] This is what they are and we should be really proud of these and we should be celebrating what we’ve achieved. As we move into the coming year, we’ve got some equally ambitious goals and all of you are going to play a really critical role in our success and us coming together to deliver on our purpose as an organisation.

[00:34:09] However, we recognise that the way that we’ve worked and the way that we’ve achieved these goals over the last 12 months is not sustainable. We cannot continue with these ways of work because we’re acknowledging. That in some cases we’re working in silos. In some cases, some of you are individually burning out.

[00:34:29] And in some cases, the culture of the organisation is not making this the best possible place to work. So, we’re going to engage in a reset. Because we want to make sure that as we go into the next year, This is a great place to work for you, and you’ve got appropriate balance, and what we’re doing and our ways of working are sustainable.

[00:34:49] So that was the messaging, and I think that was so incredibly powerful. And then what we did is we got the team together in a full day offsite, and I facilitated this, and there were a number of key objectives. Objective one was, let’s talk about our ways of working. And specifically, what’s worked really well in the last 12 months?

[00:35:11] And let’s share those ideas and let’s double down on them and let’s embed them across the whole organization. So that was a really powerful discussion around collaboration and sharing and implementing what we thought was best practice for that organization. The second part of the conversation, and this is where you really get to the heart of it is what’s really sucked, what, what hasn’t worked, right?

[00:35:34] And, and let’s, let’s create a safe space to put that on the table. And together, we’re going to work through these things and work out how we can do them differently. And I think what was so powerful coming out of that, there were a few key things. Role clarity was one of them. What had happened is over the years, managers and leaders particularly were just rolling up their sleeves and getting in and helping the troops.

[00:35:58] But that had created new habits. So there was an opportunity to go, you know what, what are the most important things we need to focus on? and let’s give ourselves permission to stop doing things that are not adding value. And that was such a powerful conversation. The second thing that came out was accountability.

[00:36:16] So how do we reset our accountability cadences and practices and let’s normalize accountability, but let’s do it in a way that’s high support and engaging and motivating for people. Um, the third theme was decision making. And, and recognising that so many transactional decisions had bubbled up to leaders, whereas we needed to actually reset this concept of delegation and ownership.

[00:36:45] And how do we allow those transactional day to day conversations to sit with the right people so they feel empowered and have that sense of autonomy. And that was going to free up the leaders straight away. Um, and then the fourth one was meetings, so many organizations just kill time with meetings that are purposeless or go for too long or have too many people in them.

[00:37:10] So there was an action coming out of it to, to basically wipe our calendars of all internal meetings and start again and deliberately design from the ground up. What are these, what do these meetings need to look like? Okay. So that there’s an example for you of of a methodology, and I’ve got a particular organisation in mind, but we’ve rolled this out so many times.

[00:37:36] And from there is the change instant? No, it’s not. However, what happens is you come out of that offsite with a roadmap and an action plan that the participants have bought into. And then what you start to get is you get incremental shift and change.

[00:37:53] Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

[00:37:53] Trudy: And I think that the thing that’s so important for people is hope.

[00:37:58] If they can see that there’s a

[00:37:59] Speaker 3: plan,

[00:38:00] Trudy: and there’s a big shiny light at the end of it, then that’s going to shift people’s mindsets, and it’s also going to lift. productivity and accountability.

[00:38:11] Rob: Is hope almost a medicine for someone who is getting close to burnout or starting to feel it? Is it again that mindset shift where they go, Oh, you know what though?

[00:38:20] I can see that on the horizon that maybe this is going to shift. Maybe this is going to change.

[00:38:24] Trudy: Absolutely. And in the world of psychology, it’s referred to as, um, locus of control. So you’ve either got an, an internal locus of control. And what that means is I can actually control this. Things aren’t great now, but I can see they’re going to be great in the future.

[00:38:39] And I know what needs to be done, and I know what I need to do to get there. That’s highly associated with well being and resilience and performance. People who have an external locus of control, That’s where they sit back and they say, I can’t control this. It’s happening to me. My life is happening to me.

[00:38:57] I’ve got no control. And that’s where you get much higher instances of burnout.

[00:39:04] Rob: So for leaders who are listening to this, thinking that, you know what 2024 has been another tough year. And I like the idea of some sort of mini reset before we hit 2025. Yeah. What would your advice be to them? Would it be to sort of set aside some time And maybe, you know, have a mini discussion around what’s gone well, what sucked in your words, what, what could we do better for 2025?

[00:39:28] Is that a good place to start? Is it around just having a conversation?

[00:39:31] Trudy: It is. And what I’d recommend to add to that is link it to your strategy. So, so people need to know what success looks like in 2025 and getting your leadership team as a minimum involved in the creation of strategy. or reminding them what the strategy is, is so incredibly powerful.

[00:39:52] And I think, as mentioned earlier, if people have, if people feel a sense of achievement and accomplishment, their wellbeing goes up. So let’s reflect on the year that’s been. That’s a great conversation now. Let’s talk about the learnings from that. Let’s paint a clear picture of what success looks like for next year and for many leaders They’ll be thinking gee, you know, there’s not that many weeks until the end of the year I’ve got no time to do a reset, but I think even just talking about what’s been what’s coming and then Setting the expectation and even locking in the date to say when we come back next year We’re going to sit together.

[00:40:28] We’re going to, we’re going to take the time to have a proper conversation. This is a full day. For some leaders, they might even take two days and let’s have some dinner and can reconnect with each other. And we’re really going to revisit our ways of working. And that’s going to happen, you know, mid January, end of January.

[00:40:45] Rob: Yep. And I’m, I’m wondering if there’s a way that a leader listening to this who suspects someone in their team might be sort of suffering a little bit from burnout, if there’s a way that they can spot that. Yes. Or if there’s some sort of telltale sign, some early warning indicators, if you like, that they could look out for.

[00:41:03] Trudy: Yeah, it’s a great question. And this is one of the most important roles that leaders plays to look after the well being of their people. And that should be the number one. priority before anything else comes with work. Now, that being said, as a leader, you’re not the psychologist and you don’t need to solve the problem, but you need to your point, Rob, to be able to identify the warning signs.

[00:41:25] And in some cases, I think to, to create some awareness in the individual that they may be feeling that way, because particularly for high performers, for highly driven people, They may not actually see it. They’re just on that treadmill and it’s become normalized for them. So I think sharing what’s been observed, and it goes back to those symptoms I mentioned at the start of this conversation, the physical, the social and the cognitive symptoms.

[00:41:56] Um, opening up a safe dialogue to ask the individual how they’re feeling, to create space for them to talk about other stresses or pressures in their life. And I think from there, starting to, to first of all, demonstrate your commitment to ensuring that they’re in the right state of mind so that they can be the best version of themselves at work.

[00:42:22] Asking if they’re getting support elsewhere, and then from a work perspective, starting to unpack where they’re spending their time. And there’s, there’s usually two triggers in the workplace. One will be lack of role clarity, people trying to do too much, and there’s an easy solution to that. Just looking, even asking the person to write down everything they’re focusing on for a week or two weeks.

[00:42:46] You will very quickly see that there’s inefficiencies, there’s rework, there’s waste, there’s things that they should be delegating that they, they’re not, there’s things that could be automated. So there’s so many opportunities to simplify and focus people’s roles. And I think a really powerful conversation around giving them permission to look for those opportunities and then create a plan to start to simplify and focus.

[00:43:12] That’s one area. area that will often trigger burnout is the stress, the cortisol levels. And often that comes from either lack of meaningful connected relationships with others. So individuals might be feeling very isolated and they don’t have that support network within the organization or there’s toxic behaviors and, and they’re, they’ve constantly got this high cortisol level because they’re, they’re dealing with the stresses from a poor relationship.

[00:43:45] And this may be something that’s been going on for years in some cases. So I think to your earlier point, don’t ignore it. You actually need to lean into that, seek professional help if need be. But how do we move the individuals past that?

[00:43:59] Rob: Yeah, and I think as you said before, leaders have a really important role in this.

[00:44:03] So my next question is then how do leaders protect themselves if they’re working in a team that is experiencing high demand, high pressures? There are people who are moving towards burnout. How do they care for others? while also taking the time to care for themselves.

[00:44:21] Trudy: Yeah. And I think this is the really tricky point.

[00:44:23] And this is why so many leaders are experiencing burnout. Because the expectation to care for others is exhausting. Nevermind caring for myself and my family. So that burden of responsibility has got larger. I think a few practical things that are really, really important is First of all recognize what what fills your cup and that will be different things for different people.

[00:44:47] It might be Playing with your kids. It might be going for a run. It might be taking some time in nature it might be doing a yoga class what whatever it is find out what works for you and Prioritize that time for yourself in a non negotiable way. And the way I like to think about it is if you had a medical appointment or if you had a meeting with a CEO or a board or somebody important in your diary, you would say to other people, no, I’m not available at that time.

[00:45:16] I’ve got this other really important thing to do. It’s having the same mindset around the things that will help you fill your cup. So if that means I’m finishing work at five o’clock on the dot on a Tuesday, because I’m going to a yoga class. It’s been absolutely ruthless that that’s critical and unless the sky is falling in you will say no to anything else So it’s it’s that discipline and that commitment.

[00:45:42] It’s it’s and I like to think about it as self respect I respect myself enough that I will prioritize what I need so that I can actually be my best self To my family, to my friends, to my, to my workplace, it extends well beyond the workplace.

[00:45:58] Rob: Trudy, I’m going to ask you to look into your crystal ball here and tell me in two years time, do you think we’re going to get a better handle on burnout as a society in Australia?

[00:46:10] Or do you think we’re kind of, where’s the trajectory going?

[00:46:14] Trudy: I, I would hope so. And that hope comes from two things. One is. The numbers are starting to go down. They were at 50%, just over 50 percent in Australia. They’re now at 38, they’re still very high, but they are starting to go down. There continues to be so much education and awareness around mental health and more and more conversations around burnout and getting to the root cause of it.

[00:46:39] that I feel leaders are really leaning into this. Um, I also feel that leaders won’t have a choice other than to get good at managing this because people will walk And if we want to retain talent, we need to create healthy workplaces where people can thrive. And that doesn’t mean that productivity needs to drop.

[00:47:01] In fact, if you’ve got healthy workplaces, productivity will go up. And I think there’s a real win win there.

[00:47:06] Rob: Yeah, absolutely. Trudi, this has been a fabulous conversation. I might even want to call it a masterclass. I’ve got pages of notes over here that I’ve taken and it’s been such a fabulous conversation.

[00:47:19] But what’s one question I didn’t ask you today that maybe you had hoped that I would have? And if I did ask it, how would you have responded?

[00:47:27] Trudy: Oh, goodness. So I’ll share a question with you that another leader asked me the other day, actually, because I think it got me thinking a little bit. And he said, look, I’ve I, I’ve got an organization that I started in my garage and he said, my mindset as a leader, five or so years ago when I was in that garage now needs to change.

[00:47:51] And I recognize that. And what, what can I do as a leader to 10 X this company to grow at 10 times? And what, what’s the mindset shift? And, and that, That really got me thinking. So, so if I were to put that question on the table, as I’ve been thinking about this, there’s a few things. One is, um, he’s already holding up the mirror to himself, but I think for leaders, we need to hold up the mirror to ourselves and the emotional intelligence that is required to not only control how we show up for others.

[00:48:29] But how we, how we perceive the world and the stories that we tell ourselves, I think is so incredibly powerful because we’re constantly bombarded by information and facts and we interpret those facts and, and the way that we interpret that information can be a story that’s helpful, that will lead us down a productive course of behaviors and actions, or we can interpret stories in a way that’s not so helpful.

[00:48:56] I hope. They’re hopeless. They, they, you know, they just want to humiliate me in front of the team. There’s all those thoughts that go through our head and those negative stories will lead to us reacting and having further negative thoughts. And we get this spiral of negativity, which increases stress levels, which makes just the world, not a nice place.

[00:49:15] So I think that that would be a final thought for me. It’s the emotional awareness, the emotional intelligence and telling ourself helpful stories to open up dialogue and conversations that will ultimately lead us through whatever the future has in store for us.

[00:49:35] Rob: Yeah. And that perception piece, um, and the storytelling piece is so interesting to me.

[00:49:40] I know we don’t have time today, so we might have to get you back on for another episode in the future. But I think there’s another thread that we could pull on and spend a lot of time on. So thank you again, Trudy. If people want to connect more with you and find out more about what you’re doing, how can they do that?

[00:49:55] Trudy: Yes, absolutely. So I, my team and I work with organizations of all sizes in the space of high performance. Um, our website is www. talentcodehr. com. au. Thank you. You can find me on LinkedIn. That’s Trudy MacDonald, Trudy with a Y and then MAC. And then I’m on Instagram as well. And the tag there is Trudy MacDonald Leadership.