[00:00:00] Rob Hills: This is The Balanced Leader Podcast, the podcast that helps leaders elevate their wellbeing and create healthier workplaces. My name is Rob Hills and I’m your leadership and wellbeing coach In today’s episode. I’m sitting down with financial coach Sloan Wilkins to talk a bit about financial wellbeing, a crucial part of our wellbeing that often gets overlooked.

[00:00:28] Nearly 3 million Australian employees are experiencing financial stress right now. Sloan shares how this impacts our work, Our teams and our lives. Having experienced financial hardship himself as a young boy, he now helps leaders and organizations build better financial well being. By listening to this episode, you’re going to get practical strategies for managing your own financial well being, but you’ll also get some ideas on how you can start having those important money conversations at work.

[00:01:01] So let’s dive into today’s conversation with Sloan Wilkins.

[00:01:10] Welcome Sloan to The Balance Leader Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:01:14] Sloan Wilkins: It is excellent to be with you and hello to everyone listening along.

[00:01:18] Rob Hills: Before we get started on my long list of questions, and I’ve got quite a few today about financial wellbeing. Can you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to doing what you do now?

[00:01:28] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, look, effectively, I’m a country boy, even though I’m based in Brisbane these days, I grew up in central Queensland, and mum and dad were involved in business, they were small business people in the town that I grew up in, so really small, only about 6, 000 people, and ultimately, when I was 12, I found out the hard way what financial devastation feels like, and that occurred because mum and dad experienced bankruptcy, This was at the height of, um, significant interest rates and high inflation at the time.

[00:01:59] So the interest rates on their business loan hit 21%. And that led to them declaring bankruptcy, losing their business. And of course we lost our home and that had some pretty serious repercussions for all of us. And a few years later, we also lost our family unit off the back of that

[00:02:17] Speaker 3: too.

[00:02:18] Sloan Wilkins: So it, it was a, I’ve seen up close, and 12 is an interesting age, when a lot is going on in your life.

[00:02:24] You’re trying to figure out who you are in the world as you’re moving into those teenage years, and then to experience this sort of thing along top of that, it really does cause you to question what’s going on. And it was, You know, loss of pride in my family, um, probably shouldn’t have been the case, but that’s how I experienced it in our loss of our place in the community.

[00:02:43] And even though I was only 12 and my name wasn’t on the mortgage, I allowed the bank to take things from me that day as well, which was really my self confidence. And for many years, my self belief, because it was just such an impactful thing. So finances are part of the way that we live our life these days.

[00:03:02] They also. If they’re not going well can dramatically impact our individual mental health, our relationships as adults and a family unit, then rippling out to the community. So it can have such a big impact if things aren’t going well. And the good news is. everyone can learn to manage money well. So that’s sort of my mission is really I’m obsessed with eliminating financial stress and whether it’s working with individuals or working with businesses to help their staff.

[00:03:32] It’s such an important thing.

[00:03:34] Rob Hills: Yeah, absolutely. How did you get into financial coaching? So what was that transition? Did you leave high school into university? Was it something that you knew you wanted to do because of the background or was it something that you sort of came to?

[00:03:47] Sloan Wilkins: It really is something that you can connect the stepping stones looking backwards, but at the time it was not deliberate at all, and I really don’t know how mom and dad felt when I left school, then I qualified to go to university, but my parents couldn’t afford to send me.

[00:04:04] And so I studied while I was working. But when, when I declared I was going to go work for a bank, fortunately, it wasn’t the bank involved in their bankruptcy, but, um, I don’t know how they felt about that, whether that was like, oh my gosh, but I wasn’t great with my hands, I was never going to be, uh, a trade or working in the mines like many of my mates were, so I needed to work out how to use my brain.

[00:04:26] So banking and then later financial planning through the banking was my work history. Did a really good job of, um, working in the financial planning world, supporting a team, teams of planners, looking up to clients that are very high net worth. However, it came to me to realize when I was working for a large organization with.

[00:04:44] A huge amount of members was a member based organization to sort of see most of these people are never going to be a financial planning client. So how might we help them? And that’s back in 2019 before the pandemic, financial stress was already rising in Australia. And I knew where we were at the very bottom historical lows on the interest rate cycle.

[00:05:05] So. It was only going to get worse. We, none of us knew what that journey was going to look like. We didn’t know the pandemic was coming, so, but we were proactively thinking about how we might help. And that came very close to coming to fruition, but the pandemic really put paid to that. And a few conversations with my longstanding executive coach later, it was like, well, you’re really passionate about this, are you going to.

[00:05:28] Wait to retirement and wish you had done something, or are you going to step forward into this space and try to bring something hopefully very valuable to many people to life?

[00:05:37] Rob Hills: Yeah, great.

[00:05:38] Sloan Wilkins: So here I am.

[00:05:39] Rob Hills: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so you’re a financial coach. Um, that’s your current role. That’s what you do in your business.

[00:05:45] Sloan Wilkins: Yes.

[00:05:45] Rob Hills: How does that differ from a financial advisor?

[00:05:49] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, one of the most obvious differences is I do not sell any products whatsoever. So I don’t step into that personal advice space. I’m not here to help you with a new super fund, uh, any insurances or investments, not here to sell you crypto or an emu farm.

[00:06:09] It really is about taking control of income or helping the person take control. You know, that’s my job is to teach them how to fish so that they can serve themselves. And if I’m doing my job really well, it means that I become redundant for that particular client. So how do we look after our income on a pay cycle by pay cycle, month by month basis and line that up in service of our most important goals, which for many people, there hasn’t often been a conversation either with themselves All between partners on where are we going?

[00:06:42] What’s this all mean? What are we really trying to achieve beyond the simple financial goals? How do we want to live our life? What are our aspirations for the kids, et cetera? That’s the stuff that is truly meaningful that we feel is a burning desire. And we want, therefore, the right type of energy for our journey.

[00:07:01] Because when we change it, the way we deal with our finances, we can lift our results. But short term motivation isn’t the right fuel for the journey. We need to tap into something bigger for us.

[00:07:12] Rob Hills: Yeah, cool. So what is financial wellbeing then? And why do you think it’s important?

[00:07:19] Sloan Wilkins: Financial wellbeing, my definition of that would be, is that we have freedom to make the choices that are relevant for us.

[00:07:26] It doesn’t mean that we have endless supplies of income. However, it means that we are not under pressure and we’ve got some options available to us. Financial wellbeing comes down to some knowledge, but not as much as people think. And a lot of the, um, the useful behaviors that are really relevant for us.

[00:07:47] The ratio is probably about 80 percent behavioral.

[00:07:50] Speaker 3: Okay.

[00:07:51] Sloan Wilkins: Controlling what we do is going to deliver the results we’re interested in. Why it’s so important is simply unless we’re going to live off grid and grow our own food. We are going to be involved in the financial system as modern humans. So given that that’s the construct that we live in, how might we not just survive, but actually thrive through that use our income and our financial resources to live a life that’s meaningful to us, whatever that particular choices, those choices look like for us.

[00:08:25] And it’s different for everyone. Some of you listeners would be definitely familiar with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Yes, we’ve got our physiological needs covered. Our safety and security needs is where many people actually get stuck, particularly with finances. And if finances are right in your face, it’s difficult to look beyond that and think, you know, how can I be the best version of myself?

[00:08:44] How can I show up as a loving partner or, in my case, a great dad? How might I then also support my community or causes that I care about? It’s difficult to get to those external things. If finances are not going well because it can feel really heavy and that becomes our predominant focus So I would love to see people become free of that stress and start to move towards financial confidence so that they have the capacity and the freedom and the space to at least turn to Who might I be?

[00:09:19] How might I develop? What gifts do I have to bring to the world? That’s that’s my big aspiration for people

[00:09:24] Rob Hills: Yeah, I imagine you’re working with a lot of clients who suffer from some sort of financial stress, which is probably why they come to you in the first place. Um, and it’s something that you’ve been through yourself, obviously, uh, when you were a child, what are some of the more common reasons or some of the more common financial stresses that people are facing?

[00:09:44] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, great question. And one of the things that I think That is very prevalent now. There’s two things. Cost of living is one and interest rate increases. That’s something we’re all aware of. So that’s brought, it was really shown a spotlight on some of the situations that we have had floating just beneath the surface for a few years now.

[00:10:07] Um, savings rates have been down in this country for a number of years and wages really haven’t gone anywhere. And that was okay while interest rates were low and inflations were low, but that situation has turned and exposed some of the vulnerabilities that we all had. So, that’s one thing there. Some of the other financial stresses that we find are quite common are lack of control over our income.

[00:10:34] And really having our financial circumstances occur around us rather than us happening to our financial situation. So that’s a common cause of stress. Two others that I would call out is too much lifestyle spending is a big one. And then too much, what I would call unproductive or annoying debt, those smaller things that seem to hang around.

[00:11:00] Sometimes we’ve had a credit card so long, it feels like a pet. Um, and the, and even down to personal loans. Even car loans, they tend to consume our income for assets that are either not going up in value or we’re paying for what has already happened, not build our future. So, so those, that style of debt definitely can hold us back because it Gobbles up our income and doesn’t, doesn’t leave us much to actually build a future that lines up with our goals.

[00:11:30] Rob Hills: You sort of alluded to this before, but I imagine a lot of this is, or it could be stuff that we’re not even aware of. So it may be stuff that because of the way we were brought up, our spending habits, Uh, maybe a little bit of dopamine rush every time we get the credit card out and we do some online shopping.

[00:11:47] I imagine that a lot of this is psychological. Is that something that you’re finding yourself in, in the clients that you work with?

[00:11:54] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, it absolutely is. And it’s very true for most of us because at the end of the day, we are biologically very similar and we’re all wired quite similarly as well.

[00:12:05] Different experiences, of course, we know that the way our brain is wired doesn’t always help us make the best quality of decisions, whether it’s finances or anything else. So for me, there’s three areas I look at when I’m talking with people. Number one is money momentum, because money definitely has a momentum.

[00:12:24] Sometimes it’s flatlining and not going anywhere. But if we’re not paying attention, the worst part is it can be negative momentum and moving away from us. So how do we turn that around? Most important goals is the second one. But the third one is actually our money mindset, which is really what your question is all about there.

[00:12:42] Some of those behaviors that we had, which may well have served us in the past, but they no longer are helpful. Hmm. So we don’t need to give ourselves a hard time about those, but how do we sort of just notice them, thank them for being, but also move them to the side and plug in something else that is going to help us move forward.

[00:13:01] Yeah. That’s a big thing, but beliefs, that’s one of the biggest things, Rob, that sits below the surface. Yeah. We, um, We’re like little sponges, I think until about the age of 12 or something like that, where we develop some really critical thinking skills before that we really don’t question too deeply what’s going on and we tend to absorb it and accept it as true.

[00:13:22] So I’m sure mom and dad for all of us did the best that they possibly could. But many of us weren’t lucky enough to have parents that were, had been taught themselves how to do well with finances. So generationally, those habits and views, even little sayings, like money doesn’t grow on trees, you know, these things, which we think are innocuous can become part of our beliefs.

[00:13:45] And then we See that come out in our habit patterns. So I like to get people to tell me the story of money growing up in their household, and that way we can start to put up the antenna and tune into some of these beliefs or, you know, soundtracks that are playing in our head periodically and try and catch ourselves out and then progressively replace them with something that actually helps us.

[00:14:08] Rob Hills: Yeah, absolutely. And I had my own little aha moment as you were saying that then thinking about my own childhood and my family’s relationship with money and and how it plays out today. It has shaped the way that I think about money and I see it showing up so many in so many different ways. So it’s really interesting that that still plays out for a lot of other people as well.

[00:14:28] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, and this is true, um, up and down the income levels as well. We, we tend to think that if someone’s earning more, that somehow they’ve got it all together with their finances.

[00:14:41] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:14:42] Sloan Wilkins: Um, I can definitely tell you that’s not true. And it doesn’t mean that they’re in dire straits necessarily because a lot of my clients have quite a strong income.

[00:14:51] They’re doing well. They’re professional people or business owners on the private client side. However. It’s often they feel like there’s more that available to them. They’re leaving something on the table with their potential through either lack of time or they simply haven’t focused in on what’s going to help them move forward.

[00:15:09] So it’s, it can be quite an aspirational conversation, even though there’s normally some elements of, you know, financial cleanup that we need to do.

[00:15:20] Rob Hills: It’s funny because as someone, you know, middle income sort of person, you look at rich people and you go, Oh, wow, they must have no money problems at all. But that’s not the case.

[00:15:29] You quite you hear about it quite often. Um, something that I’ve taught my kids. from a very young age is if you want to be wealthy, you have to spend less than you earn. And I think that’s, I think that’s true. And that may be the reason why these people who are earning lots and lots of money are in financial distress because they’re spending more than they actually earn.

[00:15:52] So, uh, it’s interesting to hear that this happens across pay grades.

[00:15:55] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, absolutely. And I was commenting to someone in the conversation that I had this morning there, you know, a great income, the analogy I use is it’s a lot like really good suspension on your car. It means that you can probably hit a pothole in the road at speed and you won’t feel it.

[00:16:10] But if you continually do that, you will cause some long term damage, whether it’s feeling more financial stress and financial stress doesn’t mean necessarily that we cannot pay the bills. Sometimes it’s, it’s disorganized chaos that we just. You know, things are, things are going on and just feels like it’s a whirlwind.

[00:16:29] Other times it can be the sense that, okay, I’m missing out. I’m leaving some of my potential, uh, untapped.

[00:16:38] Rob Hills: And that’s such a great analogy. And I imagine, you know, even some of the listeners may have experienced this themselves where they’re, driving along the road and now they’ve hit quite a few potholes and so they’re experiencing financial stress.

[00:16:51] So I imagine this is having a big impact on people’s mental health. What do the stats look like on this? Are people suffering because of their financial stress?

[00:17:01] Sloan Wilkins: Yes, they absolutely are. They’re continuing to rise. There’s a really great biannual study that comes out from AMP. So they look at this and release it every two years.

[00:17:13] The last version was 2022. And I don’t know exactly when, maybe it’s early 24 one comes out. We’ll, we’ll wait and see, but they look not only at the last two years as to what’s happened, but they look back over the years and the 2022 report basically came in indicating that financial stress had more than doubled in the previous two years since the pandemic.

[00:17:35] Wow. And that it was approaching, well, really, It was similar to levels that last seen in 2014 as we were recovering off the back of the global financial crisis there. So it is significant at the moment and in a study I was reading the other day, um, that came out from, uh, from NAB, what I really noticed and one thing, one graph that stuck out at me there, we talk about the gender pay gap, but there’s also the gender financial stress gap.

[00:18:03] And it’s pronounced for women, um, their rating scales, you know, out of a hundred. where a hundred is completely stressed and zero is not stressed at all. Women on average were sitting about 55 and blokes were sitting at about 43. Wow. Now, I don’t know why, what the determinants of that are. Some of the factors, you know, gender pay gaps could be one of them there.

[00:18:26] It could be caring responsibilities, both for younger and older people, um, that traditionally women take on. I’m not saying it should be that way, but that’s how society has played out. But for whatever reason, there is definitely more stress that, that women are feeling, um, across Australia. And I’m sure this plays out internationally true.

[00:18:46] Rob Hills: Yeah, that’s funny. I would have thought that there wasn’t much of a gap there. I would have thought that men and women experienced financial stress about the same. depending on personality types, where they grow up, um, their history, all those different things. So it’s really interesting to know that there is, that’s quite a significant gap, 43 to 55%.

[00:19:04] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah. And, um, look, and these numbers have got worse as well, more generally, but the 2022 numbers from that AMP report was indicating that just under a million employees across Australia were experiencing what they categorize as severe financial stress.

[00:19:21] Speaker 3: Wow.

[00:19:22] Sloan Wilkins: And. A further 2 million were experiencing moderate stress and, you know, various other publications have indicated that that’s even worse since then.

[00:19:31] Rob Hills: Yeah. Right.

[00:19:32] Sloan Wilkins: Through the 2024 that it’s made various articles I’ve read indicating that it’s doubled again since that level, since that time. So I would say, you know, most of us would probably know someone or a group of people who are doing it tough at the moment and have been for a number of years. We know that people have been running down their savings that they’ve built up and that’s been sort of papering over some of the cracks, but that’s not an endless, endless well.

[00:20:01] We will see that and savings have been drawing down even further. Also inside our workplaces. And I know you, you’re particularly talking with, with leaders there. There’s a few different versions of wellbeing surveys that get done inside organizations. Some of them specifically ask around financial factors, um, might be one or two questions, or there might be a deep discussion around that there, but that is coming up more and more.

[00:20:24] When I talk with HR consultants and businesses, people are thinking about, you know, one thing that would add value to me as an employee is. Can I get some insights or some help in relation to my finances? How do I boost my financial wellness?

[00:20:39] Rob Hills: Yeah, and I’m thinking that, um, looking at those numbers, uh, this must be having quite a significant impact on people’s ability to, I mean, even to stay focused at work.

[00:20:51] So it must be having a performance impact in the workplace, right?

[00:20:55] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, it definitely does. Um, I was. Surprised when I started delving more and more into the research because intuitively, intuitively, a lot of this stuff was very clear to me. And you read other literature around mental health and physical health.

[00:21:08] You can see, you can connect the dots basically. And one way of explaining this would be, you know, if we know that someone in our workforce or our team has had a big life event occur, it could be the death of a parent. It could be a divorce. We know that, you know, That they’re not going to be feeling great.

[00:21:27] And that as a result, we should expect that their performance is going to suffer. Now, hopefully that’s relatively short term and they can get some help and move through those sorts of things. Yet for some reason, we don’t tend to connect those two points around financial stress, which is one of the things that we feel so deeply with lower productivity.

[00:21:49] And, but the connection is absolutely vital. Clear it is a causal link. Um, it’s not the only thing that drives lower productivity, but it can be one of those big factors. Drives absenteeism. People are being unwell. And presenteeism is probably even more troubling. But the thing that totally blew my mind, Rob, when I was looking at some of the data there was people admitting themselves that they are less focused on safety.

[00:22:16] When they are financially stressed, which like question was particularly around that, but they’ve just called out themselves that when we have these things going on, that they tend to be, it reduces their attention on safety in the workplace, which everyone has the right to go home at the end of the day without an injury or without losing their life.

[00:22:36] So it’s pretty scary.

[00:22:38] Rob Hills: Yeah, absolutely. And again, like this must be having a huge impact. And now I’m starting to think of places or workplaces where less maybe so office environments, but more where safety is a concern. So construction, aviation, things like that. What are people doing to mitigate that? Or is this something that’s only just coming into light around people start to lose focus on safety when they’re struggling with their financial well being?

[00:23:04] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, that part did surprise me. We’re seeing more and more companies jumping into this, um, into this area providing the option for assistance. Many companies have EAP, um, so Employee Assistance Programs.

[00:23:17] Speaker 3: I’m sorry.

[00:23:17] Sloan Wilkins: And a number of those do have, um, financial assistance available through them of one form or another.

[00:23:25] Now, EIP programs are great, but what we also know about those is that a very small proportion of the employee workforce actually access them. We should see more people being proactive around that, but that’s maybe not the mindset that we, we have. So it means that we miss a lot of people. If they’re not engaging in that and it’s almost like we tend to wait until we’re hanging over the edge of the cliff by our fingernails before we reach out for help.

[00:23:53] And particularly when it comes to our finances. Well, I would like to see some guardrails inserted at the top of the cliff and that we have an information center, you know, 200 meters away from the edge so that we can tell people this is how you go about assessing where you actually are. And here’s what to do to improve that step by step.

[00:24:13] Financial literacy is also great. That also tends to be presented in a quite a broad brush because we’re talking to an audience. So the program I work with people really helps meet people where they are. So taking individual action based on a few common steps, which have been proven to deliver great results.

[00:24:33] So I think businesses have definitely got this more on their radar. Some of the things they’re thinking about is, well, are we opening Pandora’s box if we address this? That’s a really reasonable question to be, to be asking, but, um, you know, the silence of financial stress is in your business, whether you’re talking about it or not, it’s there.

[00:24:53] So for any leaders that are out there or any people who are on boards, and they’re worried, what is this going to do? If we start addressing this, these conversations are already happening. And people are already feeling it. You’re just not hearing about it. So often the first notice we get as a business owner is that someone is submitting their resignation letter because they’ve got a few extra bucks an hour down the road.

[00:25:18] And, um, that’s a terrible loss and a terrible cost. And sorry, I figure I didn’t give you off that. I am paying report there. I was, um, they’ve estimated back then that the economic revenue lost due to financial stress was 2. A little under 67 billion dollars. Wow, this is just incredible.

[00:25:36] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:25:36] Sloan Wilkins: And you know, they’ve got a very defined process of how they work through to get to that number.

[00:25:40] And it’s totally logical.

[00:25:43] Rob Hills: Yeah. So for leaders who are listening to this, who have people in their teams that they, you know, have concern for, What would be your advice on how they might approach the conversation around financial wellbeing? What should they be saying or doing in the workplace to try and bring this to light or even help where they can?

[00:26:03] Sloan Wilkins: It’s always great. And, um, I was actually at an employee wellness expo on the Gold Coast last night and had a great panel discussion there. And I was an audience member, so I was really sucking up the information. And one thing that kept coming through again and from all the experts that we’re talking with was, Surveying and understanding the needs of your team members.

[00:26:24] And some businesses do this annually. Others take a, you know, a pulse survey if they’ve got some change going on, but really allowing the opportunity for the workforce to put up the hand and sort of say, this is how I’m feeling generally, um, across a few different areas with prompted questions. And this is also some things that I would value.

[00:26:46] Maybe, maybe it’s not even available, but you know, we need to move beyond the, uh, the fruit basket in the kitchen. And I think we have, but you know, what are the opportunities that people are looking for? Try and meet people where they are. So getting, getting that good understanding is really the answer I came away with from that.

[00:27:04] Rob Hills: Yeah, right. Because I imagine it must be difficult. And I’ve probably I’m just reflecting on my own career here. I haven’t talked too much about money with my team before. It may be one of those subjects that we don’t really touch at work as much because it’s, you know, it’s a little bit sensitive. What’s the best way to start?

[00:27:22] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, look, um, I think we have had a culture in the past of, um, not talking about money because definitely when I was coming up and I’ve just celebrated my 50th birthday this year. So that sort of helps me, uh, let others know where I fit in the, in the career scale there, but, um, we were told not to talk about money.

[00:27:43] Our remuneration packages and it’s probably contributed to the pay gaps that we actually see. So, so it was off the table for a long time. I think we need to get this more to be a regular part of the discussion. We need to go ahead and demystify financial stress. And some of the ways that we can do to do that is by having conversations with our next layer of leaders down about what some of their team might be experiencing.

[00:28:11] And sort of giving them some insights into some tools and that can help them understand what’s going on with their team, which tends to come from company level. But you know what resources are already available and I think many companies have an intranet and that’s a great place that you can house some information, whether you tap into that through a provider that you already are using, but maybe not using that particular component of their let’s start providing information.

[00:28:40] It’s probably something that even our key clients. Maybe some of their team members are going through. So I believe it’s so universal, the opportunity to help people move past financial stress that is probably affecting the individuals you’re talking with on a day to day basis at some level or someone they know.

[00:28:59] So I think just let’s start the conversation and a great way to do that is providing information that’s useful and adds value.

[00:29:05] Rob Hills: Yeah, and I suppose it’s different depending on where your team are at financially and in their lives. So younger people are experiencing one sort of financial stress. Someone who’s a little bit closer to retirement is experiencing a different kind of financial stress.

[00:29:20] And then there’s all those stages in between. And I was just thinking then of a way that I might sort of raise it with someone in my team, might be around, um, every time there’s an interest rate decision, maybe just sort of saying, Oh, geez, did you see the, uh, the RBA has just come out with their latest interest rate hike, cut, whatever it is.

[00:29:36] Um, or maybe if I come across something interesting about the cost of living in the newspaper, that may be a good segue to start a conversation in a non confrontational way. Of saying, Hey, I heard this, you know, what do you think sort of thing and see where the conversation goes. And if it’s if it’s something people are struggling with, then maybe they might see that as a pressure release valve where they can then start having a conversation around it.

[00:29:57] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, and that’s a great way of doing it. And that sort of information is really helpful because it’s topical.

[00:30:02] Rob Hills: Yeah,

[00:30:02] Sloan Wilkins: people will be hearing it. It’s maybe something that. People aren’t going to talk about in a group sitting in a team meeting, but individually, when you’re having a coffee or walking somewhere, it’s probably a good opportunity there to have a, you know, a shoulder to shoulder conversation rather than an across the table one.

[00:30:21] Rob Hills: Yeah, absolutely. And I can imagine someone sitting in a team meeting going. All right. So where’s everyone’s mortgage up to this month? Uh, let’s just tell me what’s the number. Is it up? Is it down? How’s it going? Uh, so probably not the advice that we’re giving here. I’m interested to know what your thoughts are around financial education.

[00:30:41] So we’re talking about this, you know, as leaders and as people in workplaces. But a lot of leaders who are listening to this have kids. Why aren’t we introducing this into the school systems perhaps a little bit earlier? I don’t particularly remember, and I’ve been out of school for a long time too, so I don’t particularly remember we were talking about financial well being in schools.

[00:31:02] Why aren’t we talking about this stuff more?

[00:31:04] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, that’s a really fantastic question. And I wish I knew the answer, um, because I suspect that that might be part of solving it. Well, you know, first thing is admitting there’s a problem. I think we’re there. I know some really big names around the country, um, have tried to do something.

[00:31:19] So Scott Pape, you know, the barefoot investor is very passionate about this and trying to affect change in schools. Um, I think maybe the fact my understanding is at least, um, That curriculum is a state based conversation, and so therefore we don’t need to get this right once, we need to get it right for every state and territory in the country.

[00:31:40] We’re pretty good at sharing best practice ideas these days, so it shouldn’t be as hard if there’s commitment. It would seem, however, maybe there’s some more, there’s some bigger fish to fry, um, like in terms of being where we are in global rankings across math, science, and uh, and basic literacy. I think there’s some, some ground to cover there.

[00:32:01] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:32:01] Sloan Wilkins: Um, and then maybe some of these other things are just not quite on that agenda yet. I wish they were because, you know, it’s a lot of stress for people to carry as we move into adulthood. We somehow, many people put themselves under the pressure. Is of feeling like they somehow are supposed to know how to make this all work.

[00:32:21] Magically, when we start earning an income, we’ll, we’ll know how to manage money. Yeah. And we believe that everyone else does because we see the surface of their situation, not the, not the behind the scenes version.

[00:32:32] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:32:32] Sloan Wilkins: And that, that often makes it worse because we think, oh gosh, they’ve got the new house and the new car.

[00:32:37] Not knowing there’s a lot of debt maybe that goes with that or their family circumstances might have contributed to them. Yeah. Having a better starting point there. So comparing ourselves with others isn’t useful. Um, no comparison is the death of contentment. We tend to feel very stressed when we start to do that.

[00:32:56] And good old keeping up with the Joneses is not a game that we should be playing.

[00:33:00] Rob Hills: No, absolutely. Going back to that financial education piece. I suppose I’ve had a lot of conversations with both of my sons, uh, as they’ve grown up at different stages, um, of their development. Around our finances when they start to earn pocket money, what they should do with it.

[00:33:16] We talk about savings, things like that. So maybe for now, another case for just having those conversations.

[00:33:23] Sloan Wilkins: I totally agree. And I think given that we were talking before about how our brain sometimes doesn’t help us knowing that. We can flip it on its head and use it to our advantage because we know when we’ve got younger children, they are going to be absorbing what they see around them.

[00:33:38] So how can we be the best possible example for them, uh, as a minimum that conversations around money between partners actually happen and that it doesn’t involve an argument or raised voices that we are able to talk about a goal that we want to achieve. And maybe we stick that on the fridge and we, we use our finances.

[00:33:58] To save and make progress and get that goal. So there’s some really great fundamental lessons there that would not only help us as adults to achieve more with our finances, but just set such a wonderful example for our kids.

[00:34:11] Rob Hills: Yeah, I think that’s really important. What financial habits or practices have you observed in highly successful leaders?

[00:34:19] Again, you work with a lot of highly successful people or people who maybe potentially came to you who weren’t financially successful. that financially successful, but have now gotten to a point where they’re now doing the right things. So what are some of those habits or practices that you think stand out as being, you know, really key to that success?

[00:34:35] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah. The first one might surprise people. And, um, it really is. And I, I call it a spending plan. Other people call it a budget.

[00:34:44] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:34:45] Sloan Wilkins: Now, where did they go down to the nth degree and they’re tracking every dollar, um, or whether they just have a more general plan, but one thing is for sure. They do have a plan about what they are doing with their income for that, that week, that month, they know regardless of their income, where that money is going.

[00:35:05] And I think that’s the biggest thing that I’ve seen make a big difference. If that’s not already in place, that we, we start to have that degree of control around that. And that’s not being controlled by your money. That’s exerting control. That’s you making a promise to yourself and your family that this is the way that I’m going to look after things and I’m going to be in my language, the boss of my money.

[00:35:28] Money is fantastic at following orders. But we need to be the adults in the room that stand up and give it those instructions because every dollar is like a, like a worker or a teammate on a sporting team. And we know what happens if you don’t have a plan in either of those environments, it’s just, you’re not going to win the game or achieve the business results.

[00:35:47] And you won’t be there to take the grand final trophy and lift it above your head at the end of the season. It’s just not going to happen. So we need a game plan and for, so that’s, that’s habit number one. The second biggest habit. That I would say around highly successful people is they have a high degree of clarity on where they’re going, what they’re trying to achieve.

[00:36:09] And I don’t just mean with their finances, it’s the bigger picture stuff.

[00:36:12] Speaker 3: Yep.

[00:36:13] Sloan Wilkins: Finances may be part of that and their money is often a tool that enables them to take action towards their goals, but they’ve got a clear and agreed, particularly where there’s a partner. forward. This is what we are striving to achieve.

[00:36:29] Speaker 3: They,

[00:36:29] Sloan Wilkins: they, they really have that and it’s, I can often describe it really clearly, not just, you know, it’s a fuzzy aspiration, but you know, we, this is what it looks like. This is what it’s going to feel like. So connecting in with that emotion associated with that goal, that’s what helps you achieve sustainable change.

[00:36:49] And positive change with your finances. So that’s the two big habits that I would call out.

[00:36:53] Rob Hills: Yeah. Great. So with number one, so that’s a spending plan or a budget for those who don’t like using those words. Do you recommend any tools around that? Is it, um, I think I told you this the other day, my wife and I used to keep, I was like in a journal, uh, paper based writing down every sort of receipt that we spent when we first got together in our twenties.

[00:37:11] Is it sort of something like that? I imagine this has got a little bit more sophisticated nowadays. Surely there’s an app for that, right?

[00:37:16] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, there’s multiple apps and, uh, some of them are free, some of them are monetized, but you need to find what works for you is sort of my suggestion. There’s multiple ones out there.

[00:37:25] Some of the free ones are fantastic. Some of the paid ones, not so great, but it’s different for every people. Cause I’ve talked to some people who have loved one particular tool and others. Oh, that doesn’t gel for me. It’s way too complex. I don’t like it. So I. Experience and try out some of these options.

[00:37:43] Some of the, many of the banks do provide as part of their online banking application categorization, and that’s useful to an extent. It gives you some overview of what’s happening with your, your money versus maybe no money at all. Insights at all, which is how many of us currently operate. And I know I did in the past as well, but, um, the, the point is whether it’s a piece of paper or the world’s most sophisticated spreadsheet, what are you going to use that clicks for you?

[00:38:14] And you can commit to using on a regular basis. That’s the impact. It’s not so much the tool. It’s the habit of doing it that delivers the results.

[00:38:23] Rob Hills: Yeah, absolutely. And this is a lot of conversations I’m having with other guests around wellbeing. It all seems to be the same. Find something that works for you that you’re going to stick with and keep doing it.

[00:38:33] Um, so whether it’s trying to lose weight, whether it’s building wealth, whether it’s nutrition, it all seems to be the same. So I love that. That’s that personal advice. Find the thing that works for you and just do it.

[00:38:44] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah. And if you’re being sort of railroaded in some way and it doesn’t work for you, well, find someone else or something else to work with because we’re dealing with the same challenges often, but we’re all different people with different circumstances.

[00:38:57] So it’s got to be a, um, a well fitting suit, I would say.

[00:39:01] Rob Hills: Yeah, absolutely. What do you think are some of the key financial metrics that people should monitor regularly just to keep a check on their personal wealth?

[00:39:11] Sloan Wilkins: When I start sort of helping people with a spending plan or budget, if I haven’t used one before, um, we go quite granular, but we go detailed so that we can then actually zoom out over time.

[00:39:21] And when you got some clarity over a few months and you can zoom out, there’s a few key things that come up on the metrics. One is all my regular bills are being paid. That’s, that’s, that’s a pretty basic one. We have housing security. So we’re able to pay our rent or our home loan. And normally, if we’ve created space for savings, that that savings are occurring at the intended level.

[00:39:47] So if we say, if our spending plan says that we can save 500 a month, Are we or are we not making that happen? And if those three things can be measured. Yep. Yep. The bills are paid. We’ve got housing security, there’s food on the table, and we’re also saving what we said we should save. And the rest of it should be able to flow and have some flexibility and fluidity to it.

[00:40:08] Because you know, we’re moving ahead. We’re covering today. And we’re not incurring any other debt as well.

[00:40:16] Rob Hills: Yeah, and that’s great. And I think you’re right. I think you never know what’s coming up. So you’ve got to be a little bit fluid. Uh, I think get the big rocks in place. Uh, allow some movement around with those little rocks as well.

[00:40:27] So you don’t feel so constrained that you can’t do anything. Money’s there to be enjoyed at the end of the day. To a point, don’t overdo it though.

[00:40:34] Sloan Wilkins: Yeah, it’s like everything, you know, a little bit of moderation goes a long way and what, what is that middle way between?

[00:40:39] Speaker 3: Yeah, and

[00:40:40] Sloan Wilkins: I think that’s why so many people feel concerned about a budget is they are worried that they’re going to have the thumbscrews applied.

[00:40:47] And you know, every single dollar needs to be accounted for and going to a good purpose, not to be enjoyed. But that’s not the case. Like a well crafted budget should have money in there for you to have some entertainment and it should have a random spending category. It’s about how much that is.

[00:41:04] Rob Hills: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:41:06] Sloane, I’m going to ask you to get out your crystal ball here, mate. Cool. Uh, looking ahead five to 10 years, and I think in a finance world, that’s probably a very long time. What do you think is going to be the biggest challenges for people around financial wellbeing, like in that five to 10 years? What should we start thinking about now, or what’s coming up that’s going to hit us?

[00:41:28] Sloan Wilkins: Great question. Um, and I think the correct answer probably depends on your age group. So I might give you a couple of answers here.

[00:41:36] Rob Hills: Please. That’s great.

[00:41:37] Sloan Wilkins: Um, for, for the younger age group, and this is probably anyone sub 30 at the moment, it’s going to be first challenging our mindset a little bit, that it might be possible over time for us to access the housing market if we currently feel that’s impossible.

[00:41:54] Um, one of the. This is in no way blaming anyone or saying, Oh, it’s just about your mindset. If you think positive, you’ll get there. That’s, that’s partly true. Um, yeah, because you know, a positive mindset always helps because we find more solutions, but the real issues are super. Significantly bigger than that.

[00:42:13] So if we add the, um, if we give away the game and we forecast our current position into the future, then we can sort of say, okay, well, you know, if I’m earning what I’m earning today in five years time, well, you probably shouldn’t be, your income will be going up, you’ll have been building your skills and experience, you’re more marketable, you’re probably going to be earning more there.

[00:42:34] So. Don’t, don’t fall into that trap of forecasting forward your current position. So how, how might you start to put the building blocks in place? So that’s sort of the big thing there for that group and making sure that we don’t accumulate lifestyle debt along the way. So

[00:42:49] Speaker 3: I’ve

[00:42:50] Sloan Wilkins: seen, so I’ve seen and talked with people and this is not broadly representative of the age group at all, but where they’ve sort of said, okay, well.

[00:42:59] You know, housing isn’t possible for me, therefore I’m going to enjoy my life now and so it’s, it’s, it’s the new Mercedes on lease, which is nothing wrong with that. It’s a, it’s a choice and however, it’s not going to typically grow in value.

[00:43:16] Rob Hills: Yeah, yeah. And each choice has a consequence. So,

[00:43:19] Sloan Wilkins: yeah. So that, you know, that’s very tough.

[00:43:21] Um, and it may, it may require some. Alternative thinking, um, because if you’re living in Sydney and Melbourne as a young person earning an income at the regular level there, it is going to be extraordinarily difficult to break in to the housing market. So how might we maybe invest somewhere else, um, in a different part of the country.

[00:43:40] But the, um, the sort of. Let’s call it the 30 to 30 to 50 group. It’s going to continue to be how do we make sure that we are building the longer term, contributing towards our retirement savings, whatever that looks like, it doesn’t necessarily mean super, although that’s a great place. Um, and how are we also getting on top of our homeline, presuming that we have that there whilst also dealing with typically kids school fees.

[00:44:08] Um, and. Navigating the challenges of a career and feeling sometimes quite unbalanced due to the workload that we’ve got as, uh, as leaders and successful professionals. So it’s finding those opportunities where we can take what I call little and often decisions. And, Adding a bit more to either reduce our mortgage every, every pay cycle every month and also contributing a bit more to our retirement savings.

[00:44:35] We often think that 50 or a hundred bucks per pay cycle won’t make much of a difference. But when we look at the power of compound interest and plug it into an investment calculator, it’s, it’s huge.

[00:44:46] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:44:47] Sloan Wilkins: So don’t discount the power of little and often is what I would say around that. And, you know, keep abreast of what’s going on because we’ve got a, A whole AI themed world coming at us.

[00:45:00] So what does that look like for our industry? Is it going to wipe out my industry? Some, some industries that might be true, but more than unlikely, it’s going to mean that we are able to do more and be more effective and more productive with some of the tools. So don’t feel afraid of it, lean into it. And so to say, what can we do to really learn from this and bring those new technologies to life in the future?

[00:45:25] Evening some quite, um, older industries.

[00:45:28] Rob Hills: Awesome. And what was the last category? Is that 50 plus for the last category? Or is there a 50 sort of something in between?

[00:45:35] Sloan Wilkins: Uh, yeah, there’s, there’s always a few different categories. Um, But really, if you are 50 plus and you, if you feel like there’s some financial catch up that you need to do, that’s a group that I speak to sometimes, um, particularly if they’ve been small business owners for a long time, the superannuation or the retirement savings can be a little underdone.

[00:45:56] So if you feel like you’re paying catch up, don’t ever think that it’s too late to get started. The best time to act is always today. And that’s what we’ve all got in front of us. So what can we do now? Let’s give ourselves a little bit of grace for what’s already happened But put in place the building blocks to move forward because even if we retire 60 or 65 We’ve got maybe 20 plus years living in retirement where yes, we’re using some of the income, but we’re also generating returns I don’t think that the line stops when you hit retirement.

[00:46:30] It’s still got earning potential moving forward from there.

[00:46:33] Rob Hills: Yeah, that’s great. Thank you, Sloan. Sloan, we’ve covered a lot of ground today. Lots of different questions. But what’s one question I didn’t ask that maybe you hoped I would have? And if I did ask that question, how would you have responded?

[00:46:48] Sloan Wilkins: I love that Rob.

[00:46:49] Um, I would say, and one thing I’ve written down that I hope we might get to at some point with imposter syndrome.

[00:46:54] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I love

[00:46:55] Sloan Wilkins: it. Because I’ve definitely felt that At times and I did relatively well in my career quite early and I’m very thankful for that opportunity But I throughout my 20s was doing some really smart things with money and some really dumb stuff as well um, the smart stuff was longer term and the dumb stuff was Uh trying to fill an emotional void inside of me from what we talked about in my younger years

[00:47:20] Speaker 3: with

[00:47:21] Sloan Wilkins: Material things so spending more than I earned.

[00:47:23] Speaker 3: Yeah,

[00:47:24] Sloan Wilkins: um, but I When you’re running a multi million dollar P& L for a department or a business unit, and you feel like your individual financial circumstances are a little bit underdone in whatever area, that can really feel like, oh gosh, if anyone knew what my situation is like, I would be mortified.

[00:47:44] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:47:45] Sloan Wilkins: So it can play on your mind. And I have seen that talking to multiple professionals where they, they really want to. Make sure that their personal financial situation matches how they figure the rest of the world looks upon them or their seniority level there, but try not to fall victim to that imposter syndrome.

[00:48:07] And one fantastic thing that I heard, and I cannot remember who coined the term, but I was listening to a podcast about someone who’d read that person’s research or interviewed them, et cetera. And they said that they wish they had named it the imposter experience

[00:48:22] Speaker 3: as

[00:48:22] Sloan Wilkins: opposed to a syndrome, syndrome indicating that it’s ongoing experience, meaning it’s episodic.

[00:48:28] And that’s more what they were trying to describe because we don’t live it every single day. It comes up in little bursts here and there and we can deal with it and move on. So don’t live there, recognize that it is episodic and there’s definitely something you can do to address what you might be feeling.

[00:48:45] for listening. around your personal financial circumstances. And I also believe it’s going to help make us more effective and more empathetic as leaders when we take care of our own circumstances and help lift others up.

[00:48:57] Rob Hills: That’s great advice. Thank you, Sloan. This has been a wonderful conversation, uh, and one that I think will really help listeners who are tuning in today.

[00:49:05] So also wanted to thank you for the work you’re doing with leaders to help educate people around financial wellbeing. Um, it’s great stuff you’re putting out into the world. So thank you for that. If people want to connect more with you and find out more about what you do, how can they do that?

[00:49:19] Sloan Wilkins: The best way would probably be via LinkedIn.

[00:49:22] So as far as I know, there’s only one of me on LinkedIn. So just look for Sloan Wilkins and you’ll typically find me quite easily.

[00:49:31] Rob Hills: Yeah, great. And we’ll link to that in the show notes and I’ve got a couple of other sites there that I’ll link up as well so people can find you very easily. So thanks again, Sloan.

[00:49:39] Really appreciate it, mate.

[00:49:40] Sloan Wilkins: Wonderful. Thanks so much, Rob. Cheers, everyone.