[00:00:00] Rob: This is the Balanced Leader Podcast, the podcast that helps leaders elevate their wellbeing and create healthier workplaces. My name is Rob Hills and I’m your leadership and wellbeing coach. I recently had the opportunity to sit down with Dr. Adam Fraser. Adam is a peak performance researcher, author, and keynote speaker.

[00:00:26] We talked about his research and why he takes on the projects he does. We talked about his book, The Third Space, and strategies for increasing wellbeing. And he gave some amazing practical advice on how you can shut down your inner critic, who he affectionately calls Kevin. I loved every minute of my conversation with Adam.

[00:00:45] He was so authentic and shared openly, not only about some of his conversations he’s had with people he’s worked with, but also gave us a glimpse into his personal life as well. I really hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed making it. So without further ado, let’s dive into today’s conversation with Dr. Adam Fraser.

[00:01:09] Welcome Adam to the Balanced Leader Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:01:13] Adam: Pleasure. Pleasure. I’m in sunny Sydney right now. It’s a beautiful day. It’s been a hell of a morning, but it’s a beautiful day.

[00:01:22] Rob: I was just remarking people on the audio version won’t be able to see this, but I love the background.

[00:01:27] There’s a lot of creative work going on in the background with different colored post it notes, all neatly lined up too. So you were saying that’s part of the research for the next book?

[00:01:37] Adam: Yes. Yes, it is. And my team love coming in and, and putting them like, Just out of straightness, and it’s not that I have OCD and I need them to sit like that, but they just like, enjoy teasing me.

[00:01:52] Yeah.

[00:01:52] Rob: Yeah, that’s hilarious. Adam, I’m, I’m really excited to have you on the show today. Yeah, likewise. I’ve been a big fan of your work for many years now, and I’ve, as a leadership facilitator, um, primarily when I was working in the Australian Federal Police. We used to talk a lot about your concepts with police officers, federal agents, um, to help them understand particularly one of the concepts we’ll get to later, which is the third space.

[00:02:14] Yeah. Um, so just wanted to say, I can’t wait to dive into the, to your research and to talk more about these concepts with you, um, been a big fan of your work for a long time. 

[00:02:24] Adam: Oh, well, I hope I don’t disappoint.

[00:02:26] Rob: I’m sure you won’t. Setting the bar high early. Sorry.

[00:02:31] Adam: At the end you’re like, that guy’s trash.

[00:02:34] Rob: So before we get into those concepts, um, to help us get inside the mind of Dr. Adam Fraser, Can you take us back to a time when you were leaving high school and embarking on your work life and your work journey? What were you doing at that time? And what were you thinking you were going to be doing?

[00:02:51] Adam: Well, out of school, I, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. And I definitely wasn’t sophisticated enough or mature enough to really work out what I wanted to do with my life.

[00:03:02] And yeah, I enrolled in computer engineering. Um, cause someone said that made a lot of money. So I thought, why not try that? And I hated it. Funny thing was I was passing, like I was actually getting all right marks, but I just hated it. I didn’t really understand it. And in the Christmas holidays, I was talking to a mate and I just ran, I can’t go back.

[00:03:24] Like I just can’t. So I spent the whole, the whole holidays really researching. What courses did I want to do? What appealed to me? What was I interested in? And, um, I ended up changing to biomedical science, which is a blend of psychology and physiology. And, uh, they actually didn’t let me change courses.

[00:03:46] They said, look, you can enroll in our subjects and if you do, okay, we’ll let you. Um, you know, transfer across. So I just worked my butt off straight HD to all my subjects because my, like, I was really engaged and I wanted to get this. And then they went. Come on in. And, uh, so I changed, um, into, into that profession and, you know, originally wanted to work with elite athletes and did that for a little while, but just wasn’t my thing.

[00:04:18] I much prefer working with, I suppose, normal people in business and in, in occupations. And, uh, yeah, that’s kind of how I found myself here.

[00:04:29] Rob: Yeah. Right. So you sort of went on that path, you changed. Yeah. Was there some sort of defining moment in there that went, this is what I’d rather be doing. This is where my passion lies.

[00:04:39] Is there something that you found in the research that went, this is, this is the thing for me?

[00:04:45] Adam: Yeah. And look, I mean, the good thing about Biomed cause I was thinking about doing pure psych. And what I liked about the, the physiology and the psychology, it was much more focused on like, how do we evolve?

[00:04:57] How do we improve? How do we optimize? Then traditional psych normally looks at pathology and problems. So, and when I, when I finished my degree and I thought, do I want to do the psych masters? And they told me I had to do like 300 hours of supervised counseling. And I just went, Oh no, not doing that. So I went down that kind of research.

[00:05:21] Side of things in terms of the psych and the physiology piece, but I just loved it. As soon as I started to do the subjects, like it made sense to me. I got it. Um, not that it was easy, but I just, yeah, I was good at it. Whereas with engineering, oh man, I was just, I was out to sea. I just had no idea. And I love that year cause I.

[00:05:44] Had the best friends in engineering and we partied and we had the best time ever. That’s probably been, you know, the greatest circle of friends, but I would talk to my mates and they were just so smart, like so smart and they just. They’re on a whole nother intellectual level. And you know, whether it’s my brain doesn’t work like that or I didn’t have that type of intellect, it just, it didn’t work.

[00:06:09] Whereas Biomed did, it just clicked right from the get go.

[00:06:13] Rob: Yeah. And it certainly sounds like you’ve found your calling. So. Some of the work you do now, you’re a consultant, you’re an author, you’re a professional speaker. Tell us about some of the work you do and some of the clients you work with.

[00:06:26] Adam: Yeah, well, I mean, um, I, I spend my time in three areas.

[00:06:30] One is presenting. And when I present, I present our research. So it’s not like I’m presenting my take on the growth mindset or my take on Um, psychological safety. It’s, it’s much more, Hey, here’s some research we’ve done and here’s what we’ve found. So the, and what I like about that, there is a uniqueness to it.

[00:06:53] Like you’re not going to hear that message from someone else. Um, so yeah, I do a lot of conference speaking, a lot of offsites, workshops. Um, and that’s with all sorts of professions from finance to, yeah, actually I’m doing a lot of work with the police at the moment, which I’m loving, like there’s just such good people.

[00:07:12] Uh, so that’s the first area. Secondary is research. So we can, we work with different universities. Consistently to look at, well, what are some of our challenges and what are some of the problems we’re facing and how do we solve them? So a study I’m doing at the moment is looking at the impact of secondhand trauma on, uh, educators, well, actually all staff in school.

[00:07:35] So what we’re seeing is more children are presenting trauma at school. And, and, you know, educators have be kind of. They’ve become the social workers of society. Like they’re just having to do so much and no one’s looked at, well, how does that affect the educator and how do they, how do they support themselves through that?

[00:07:55] And there’s literally no studies in Australia. There’s very few worldwide. So that’s something we’re doing currently. Like we’re actually collecting data.

[00:08:03] And the third area is large scale interventions. So. Uh, we’ve done a lot of work in professional services, your firms like PWC and EY looking at partner burnout, like what’s creates that and also most importantly, what’s the solution to that?

[00:08:20] Um, you know, we work with executives teams similar to yourself around, you know, how do we build more connection? How do we have more harmony? How do we? How do we be aligned and really lead the organization forward? Uh, and, and, you know, another example is we run a program for school leaders around Um, sustainable leadership practices and effectiveness, like how do we get school leaders to be really effective to manage an impossible job, but also not burn out at the same time.

[00:08:51] So that’s kind of me in a nutshell.

[00:08:53] Rob: Yeah, love it. How do you decide on where your research is going to take you? Is it stuff, feedback you’re getting from when you’re having these engagements with people? Is it personal areas of interest or are you looking at other bits of research and that’s sort of leading you down a path and you’re like, Oh, that’s where I want to go next.

[00:09:11] Adam: That’s such a great question. And I’m kind of having a midlife crisis at the moment because I’m going, all right, if I’ve got 15 years left, what do, what do I want to do? What’s the impact? What’s the focus going to be? But it’s exactly as you kind of. Describe it. Um, well, I think all my work comes from conversations with people, you know, the third space, which is a really popular piece of research.

[00:09:38] We did came from a conversation with a CEO in his home. Um, the vicarious trauma research came from a conversation and I don’t know, you might want to cut this out or you might want to, cause I’m going to talk like tell a really. Traumatic story, but, um, I was talking to a principal about, you know, why, why does he do that job and, or, or where’s the meaning in that?

[00:10:07] And he said, you know, uh, I’m the principal of a primary school number of years ago, there’s a little girl in kindergarten. He said, beautiful kid, like just the perfect kid, you know, funny, charming. Like kind and, uh, it started to rain at lunchtime. So the weather changed really bad. It became very cold, started to rain.

[00:10:29] And he said, her dad turned up and with a jumper and a raincoat to this girl and said, Hey, she’s got to get the bus home. I don’t want her to be cold. And I don’t want her to be wet. And he said to the principal, could you drop this in for her? And the principal’s like, yeah, no worries. I had a quick chat.

[00:10:46] And he said, the dad went home and hung

[00:10:48] Speaker 4: himself.

[00:10:49] Adam: And man, I, and this principal has started to cry like I’m, I’m all my, like I’m welling up. And he said, man, I’ve got to tell you, I don’t think there’s a day where I don’t think about that. And he said, when I became a teacher, I thought, oh, you know, I’m going to educate kids.

[00:11:06] And I didn’t think I’d be dealing with all this stuff. And this story like just rocked me because you know, I have two daughters. I just couldn’t stop thinking about it. And I went, man, like I am devastated by that story. Like that really, and I’m not talking, I thought about it for a couple of days. Like that stayed with me for months.

[00:11:27] And I went, man, if that’s having that impact on me, I don’t even know that girl. I don’t even know that father. Imagine what it does to the educators. And I just, I don’t know, like, I just became really tenacious and just went, someone has to study this. It’s been very hard. And you know, we’ve spent so much money on this project.

[00:11:49] Like from a business perspective, it’s been terrible. But from a, it’s just like, well, someone has to do this. Don’t they? And just that emotional investment of. Yeah, I’m not going to give up on this thing. We really have to understand it because it’s very, very important. So, yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s how I’m God.

[00:12:13] Actually, even we did some research with financial advisors a number of years ago about their mental health. Like you would know that that group has just had so much regulatory change, so much change in how they operate, how they interact with clients, how they get paid. And, um, you know, I, I spoke at a financial advisor conference and, uh, about five guys in their fifties kind of bailed me up and went, Hey, you got to do some research on us.

[00:12:43] And I’m like, what do you mean? He goes, well, there has been 12 suicides in financial advising. This year, because people are buckling under the pressure. And one of the guys like really looked him in the eye and said, will you promise me that you’re going to do this? And I promised him and I went, Oh, okay, I guess I’ve got it.

[00:13:06] I mean, it’s those sorts of things where you go, well, how could I not engage in that? How could I turn away and let those people down? So, yeah, I guess I haven’t really reflected on that much. So I know that was really heavy, but. That’s kind of some of the things that drive me.

[00:13:25] Rob: Well, and thank you for being so honest and vulnerable in your answer.

[00:13:29] It must be amazing work that you’re doing and it must be amazing, amazingly rewarding when you get to present the research and hopefully see, you know, that shift and that change and that impact over time. Yeah. So, thank you for the work you’re doing. It sounds amazing.

[00:13:44] Adam: Yeah, and it is important to shine a light on those things and particularly with the financial advisor research, we just got so many phone calls, so many emails just saying, Hey, thanks, thanks for doing that because I thought I was the only one that felt that way, or I thought I was the only one that felt that pressure or, you know, now when we get together as a group, we, we do have deeper conversations about how we’re coping our mental health, what’s happening for us.

[00:14:12] So, yeah, I mean. Yeah, it does. I don’t know whether feels good and we don’t kind of go, Oh, wow. Aren’t we amazing. But it’s definitely, I’m glad that this is valued. Oh, look at this. My wife’s just delivering me coffee. Thank you. That’s

[00:14:31] Rob: amazing. The

[00:14:32] Adam: world is complete now. We’re just going to see

[00:14:35] Rob: a real spike now in engagement and excitement from Adam.

[00:14:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ll start talking faster. Well, while

[00:14:41] Adam: you have

[00:14:42] Rob: a quick sip of that, I just wanted to say it’s great that you’re making space and opening up the conversation. This is something that I’m passionate about, particularly, and this work started for me when I was in the AFP. Just creating space where leaders can come together and talk about things they don’t normally talk about.

[00:15:00] And I’ve had even a couple of conversations this week where people have said, Oh, I kind of don’t really say this, but I’m going to put it out there. And then we have the most amazing and in depth conversation. And we both walk away feeling a little bit better and a little bit more seen. Because I think we all think we’re the only ones who are feeling this way.

[00:15:15] And that’s not the case. So it’s great to open the conversation.

[00:15:19] Adam: Yeah, I mean, God. You would have such a wealth of like that work you did with, um, the police. My gosh. You talk about a group who’s just, oh, I’ve just grown to love them so much and have so much empathy for them. And even like I was reading a research paper about when an officer goes to a domestic violence situation, here are all the things that they have to consider and take into account.

[00:15:50] Hmm. And I just went, Oh my gosh, that is such a complex thing. Cause it’s so easy to judge a group. And you know, I’ve got a lot of, you know, I’ve got female friends who have had been in a violent relationship and you kind of go, well, the police should do something and they should do this and they’re not doing enough.

[00:16:10] And when I read this, I went,

[00:16:11] Speaker 4: Oh my

[00:16:12] Adam: gosh, like there is just so much complexity in this one situation. As well as, you know, like some of these officers are in their early twenties, mid twenties, like I was an idiot when I was in my, I was getting drunk and falling asleep in bushes at university. I couldn’t have done anything as sophisticated as that.

[00:16:35] So, I mean, gosh, you would have some stories about, you know, particularly that male. bravado of, uh, you know, you just gotta, you gotta be strong. You can’t be weak. You don’t talk about that stuff.

[00:16:49] Rob: Oh, absolutely. And it’s funny. Cause I didn’t talk much about my own mental health journey until I started presenting on leadership and.

[00:16:58] As a part of the leadership conversation, there was this huge space we weren’t talking about, which was wellbeing. And as soon as I started to open up a little bit, it really did create that space for others to talk about it. And it was, it was like the damn wall had been broken and a group of. You know, 20 people come together at the start of the week and everyone’s particularly in a policing environment, everyone’s sort of looking at each other, you know, side eyed, who are they?

[00:17:21] Um, but by the end of the week, everyone’s like, we got to catch up. There’s tears. There’s like, it’s an amazing bond that forms quickly because people are okay to open and just share about what they’ve been through. And it’s a lot. You’re right. It’s a lot.

[00:17:34] Adam: It’s a, it’s a huge amount. And even, you know, I, I suppose I get drawn to those more giving roles, like, You know, school leader, principal, medical, um, social work.

[00:17:49] They’re just such extraordinary individuals and, um, you know, getting in particular men to open up and have real conversations. I mean, as you just described in, like, it’s life changing. It’s genuinely life changing. So, yeah, it’s awesome that you’re doing that work because God, we need it.

[00:18:10] Rob: Thank you. And again, back at you, my hat off to you, sir, for the work you’re doing in this space, which brings me to, as I mentioned in the introduction, one of the pieces of work that I focused on when I was in the AFP was the third space.

[00:18:23] When I first saw, there’s like a, um, a video you’ve got up on YouTube. And when I first saw that, it was like a light bulb just went off in my head and I’ve gone, Oh my God, like this, this could be transformative for me personally. I’ve got to start talking and sharing this with other people. So before I go into, you know, my experience with it, can you tell the listeners a little bit about what it is and how you came up with it?

[00:18:48] Adam: Yeah. Well, what the third space looks at is the concept of transitions. Like how do we move from one thing to another? And it can be a big transition, like we’re transitioning into retirement, or it can be a micro transition where. I go from one meeting to the next and, and similar to how you described it before, just things started to happen.

[00:19:11] Little things dropped. You know, I was, I can’t remember the order. Like I’m terrible with time, but you know, like I read some of Jim Lewis stuff and he was studying elite tennis players. And what he talked about was, What separated the elite players was what they did in between the points, not what they did in the point.

[00:19:32] So elite players could make a mistake and get over it really fast. And then they could calm their physiology. So they, um, conserved energy and then they could be really present for the next point and not worry or think about other things, whereas the lower ranked players didn’t have that ability in that gap.

[00:19:50] So I went, Oh, wow, that’s really interesting. And then. You know, I was doing some work with soldiers and, you know, I said to them, what’s the hardest part of your job? And they said, coming home. They went, man, I come home and I fight with my family for two weeks because, you know, I’ve been away, uh, and when I’m away, you know, it’s a very different culture to my home and I can be doing very.

[00:20:14] Stressful things. And when I come home, I try to fit in and it doesn’t work very well. And, and one of them talked about how he saw a psychologist and the psychologist gave him a strategy to do on the plane to come home in a better state. So I went, wow, that’s interesting. And then I had an interaction with a CEO who literally built a new entrance into his home.

[00:20:37] And at the end of the day, he would go into his room, have a shower, like take off the suit and have a shower, put on casual clothes. And it was this ritual to help him transition into being a dad and a partner. So really the third space is just these transitional gaps. So the first space is what, what I’m doing now.

[00:20:57] Second space, what I’m about to do. Third space is the transitional gap. So, I mean, this morning, my routine is, you know, I’m up at five. I go to the gym, I come home, 6. 30, help get my daughters ready. They leave at 7. 30, uh, and they decided to have a massive fight this morning about whose tights were whose.

[00:21:17] So I’m trying to make their lunch and do this and do that. And then, you know, put on a load of washing, hung a load of washing out. And then I come in here and, you know, I just took. A couple of minutes to think about like, I want to be present. I want to, you know, really engage in this conversation. You know, I want to give Rob a good experience.

[00:21:38] I want to make sure I’m clear. So it’s, it’s kind of like I went from this chaotic environment where I’m rushing to, okay, how do we become really present and really focused? So that’s the third space. And in particular, where it’s most popular is that transition from work to home. Because so often we take.

[00:21:58] The work day with us into the home. Like we’re frustrated, we’re angry, we’re tired. And we just looked at a third, like a three step process of how do I reflect on what I’ve just done? How do I calm myself? And then how do I reset myself for what I’m about to go into? Like, how do I want to behave? What impact do I want to have?

[00:22:21] So yeah, that’s the third space. And as you pointed out, it’s been like still probably the most popular. Thing we’ve ever done.

[00:22:28] Rob: Yeah. And it really has had an impact. And, um, you know, when I, when I tell people about this, uh, they’re like, oh yeah, right. So I’ve got to, you know, find my third space. So for me, um, it’s a set of lights that are maybe a kilometer of distance.

[00:22:42] Two kilometers from home where when I hit those lights, I know, okay, now I’ve got to make that transition from, you know, whatever’s going on in my head to what I want to show up and what energy I want to bring when I come home and you’re talking about an example of someone who shows up kind of like the hurricane when they come in the door or whatever, but you never really know what’s waiting for you on the other side of the door.

[00:23:04] Some days it’s like peaceful and everyone’s happy and off doing their own thing. Other days you’ve walked in and there’s like, something’s happened and I don’t know what it is, but I can just sense it. Right. So,

[00:23:15] Adam: or it’s just flat out war. Yeah,

[00:23:18] Rob: that’s right. Shoes flying across the room. Someone complaining about someone’s tights.

[00:23:21] Thank you for sharing your story. Um, so for me, it’s not necessarily about preempting what’s happening because I, you never know. But it’s knowing that if I show up as the best version of myself that I’m going to be better prepared to help the people around me as opposed to be focused on this is the energy that I’m bringing from my day.

[00:23:40] And this is what happened in my day or whatever. So I love that.

[00:23:44] Adam: Yeah. And it’s like, um, kind of going back to, and I, I know I’ve used a lot of male examples, but often when I present this, In particular, men come up and go, Whoa, like that, that hit hard because I have shown up as a jerk for so long. And, um, I mean, you relate to this too, is, you know, you do this work with leaders and they’re very, You know, they’re very guarded and they don’t really give away too much.

[00:24:19] But then you go out for dinner and after eight glasses of red wine, that’s when they start to really talk to you. And I, I was at this thing with some really senior people and this guy comes up and he goes, man, I wish I’d heard you present 20 years ago. He goes, I’m super successful. I’ve made a ton of money.

[00:24:41] But he said, the thing I have regret about is that the people that meant the most to me. Got the worst version of me and you know, I just, he said, I just, I know I could have just shown up better and yeah, I’ve worked long hours and yeah, I really challenged myself, but that’s my regret is that they got what was left over and it wasn’t very good.

[00:25:06] So this is where it really resonates with people in that context.

[00:25:12] Rob: Yeah. And if people aren’t familiar with the third space, I’ll put a link in the show notes for people to go and check it out. Um, because I think if we all have our own third space really makes an impact. In fact, it made such an impact on me when COVID came around, my third space kind of got derailed a little bit because I wasn’t driving home from work anymore.

[00:25:31] And so I’d walk out of my study and, I didn’t have that transition and it was like, Oh, I mean, I’m in it now. So it was a matter of refocusing and thinking about what could my transition be? And then how can I sort of incorporate that so that I don’t just go from laptop closed to here I am.

[00:25:50] Adam: Yeah. Yeah. And Rob, like you nailed it.

[00:25:53] I mean, when COVID happened, I got more emails about this concept than I ever have because they were like, well, I had the transition, which was. You know, I caught the train or I caught the bus or I drove or I walked and they said, now I’m working at the kitchen table. There is no separation. There is no, so what, what we talk to people about is you’ve got to find your own third space, like whether it’s, you know, one guy talked about how he went out, walked around the block and came back in and it’s now, okay.

[00:26:26] I’m a dad, I’m a, I’m a husband. Uh, you know, a woman talked about that. She would like literally get dressed for work and when it finished, she will get changed into like active wear and go to the park, listen to a podcast, walk around the park, and then when she walked home, she’s like, okay. I’ve changed gears.

[00:26:47] I’m now this person. So yeah, particularly when we’re working from home. Um, it’s very important to still have that process and how do I decompress from the day? And look, I mean, we had, we did a lot of research, uh, during this period and what we showed Is 65 percent of people said when I work from home, I think about work far more in my personal time than when I used to commute because the commute was kind of that inflection point.

[00:27:20] It was that that full stop and in particular. Working mothers said, I miss my commute. Like I don’t miss the physicality of sitting in traffic, but I miss what it gave me. And so many moms went, that was the only me time I had.

[00:27:38] Speaker 4: That’s

[00:27:39] Adam: when I called a friend. That’s when I listened to an audio book. That’s when I just stared out the window of the train and.

[00:27:47] Like, let’s not get delusional, you know, in, in that sort of situation, working mothers are doing so much in the home, so they’re doing so much more than their partner. So they kind of, they are transitioning into, you know, so many tasks that they, they are missing that ability to. Have that time for themselves to

[00:28:09] Rob: decompress and it’s funny, the transition doesn’t take long.

[00:28:13] You can do something really quite quickly, but the impact that it has, it’s such a great investment. So again, I

[00:28:22] Adam: was just going to say what I love about this concept is that it can be so personal. Like what, what works for one person doesn’t work for another and you take it and make it suit your life.

[00:28:35] Like I had. An executive say to me, man, after your talk, all I do is just finish the phone call in the car. He said, I used to come in the house. I’m on the phone. Kids are trying to hug me and I’m pushing them off. And my wife gets angry with me. You know, it’s. Like I just finish it in the car, take a couple of deep breaths and then walk in the house.

[00:28:57] Yeah. I’ve got a mate of mine who, um, you know, he, he doesn’t have kids and he and his partner have this process at the end of the day about how they disconnect from work, reconnect and spend time together to help them transition out of that work mode. So no matter who you are, like you can, you can, you just find what works for you.

[00:29:21] We were doing some work with paramedics and we taught them this concept. And then we said, all right, go away and just trial it, but, but feedback to us, what you come up with and a regional group. God, that was so brilliant. They came up with a concept called get out of the green and their uniforms greens.

[00:29:42] And they said, often, you know, we come home, but we’ve got to run a kid to footy practice or, you know, we’ve got to go somewhere and we stay in our uniform and we haven’t got changed because we’ve run out of time. And what they, what they talked about now is that their process is when we go home. The boots are left at the door.

[00:30:03] So we take the boots off. They’re left at the door. We go into our room. And the first thing we do is peel the day off and that peeling off the uniform. They said it’s symbolic of I’m leaving the day behind. And, and they just said, even that is, has a huge impact on my mindset and my behavior. So, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s really about taking this.

[00:30:26] And then Making it suit your world.

[00:30:28] Rob: Yeah, and I’ve heard lots of different stories and different ways of people doing it, which is great because it is such a personal concept. You’ve got to find the way that works for you. Yeah. I want to change gears a little bit now into some research I’m not as familiar with, but I’ve heard about this guy called Kevin.

[00:30:44] And I’m wondering if you can tell me a little bit about him and what does he mean to you?

[00:30:49] Adam: Oh, Kevin has been a pain in the butt for about eight years. So what’s happened in psychology? And you will know this. One of the problems with research is it takes a very long time for breakthroughs in research to reach the general public.

[00:31:08] Rob: Yep.

[00:31:09] Adam: Now, obviously it’s accelerated because of our access to information, but still like really good peer reviewed research takes a long time to get into normal practice. So for example, what we know is if someone goes through a traumatic event, If we bring like a counselor in and that counselor sits with them and gets them to relive it and talk about how they felt during that experience, that’s the worst thing you can do for that person.

[00:31:40] Now, when I heard this, I’m like, no, no, no, that doesn’t make sense. That support is critical. But what’s happened is when you’ve been through trauma, like your, your brain chemistry You got co. Like is your stress hormones are on steroids. Like you’ve got this floating through your system and if you get someone to sit down after that and relive it and talk about the emotions they feel, what happens is that gets amplified.

[00:32:09] So the experience becomes actually more traumatic because of the chemical. Um, profile of the brain. Now, what you can do is sit with that person and support them in any way they need, but making them kind of. Relive it and, and process it and talk about their emotions is actually the worst thing you can do.

[00:32:33] Now, I only found that out a couple of months ago when I read a research paper from UNSW, uh, they’ve got a trauma and stress clinic there. I forget the guy, but he wrote the article, brilliant work. Like the guy’s a genius. So I call some of my friends who are psychs and they go, Oh yeah, totally. Like we’ve known that for years.

[00:32:54] And I called actually some of my friends, a wonderful woman. Who’s a police officer. And I said, did you know about this? And she goes, yeah, of course. Like the whole model is moving towards, um, uh, like emotional first aid. So the problem is we’re making these big breakthroughs, but the average person doesn’t hear about them.

[00:33:14] Now, what’s happened with psychology is the models moved away from when I have a negative thought or a negative emotion, I’m supposed to notice it. I’m supposed to challenge it. I’m supposed to fight it. And then I replace it with a better, um, I’m supposed to Uh, thought so, you know, something I suffer from a lot is imposter syndrome.

[00:33:37] So, you know, I might have a thought of who the hell are you to talk on this podcast? You’re an idiot. No one should ever listen to you.

[00:33:44] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[00:33:44] Adam: Right. So the old ways, if I have that thought, I go, no. That’s a terrible thought. I shouldn’t think that I’ve got a PhD. I’ve written these books. I’m awesome at all this stuff and people should listen to me.

[00:33:57] Now that was the old model, right? What we’re moving towards is something called psychological flexibility. Some people refer to it as act therapy and Russ Harris is the real genius in Australia on this. Concept and what it’s moving away from is you’ve got a battle and fight those negative thoughts to can you be aware of them and accept them and not try and fight them and just accept the fact that, yeah, when you put yourself out there, you have imposter syndrome or when you think about going for a job promotion, You get really self conscious.

[00:34:41] So what it’s about is can you just accept, yeah, in those situations that what, that’s what my brain does. But in this moment, I’m on this podcast to serve people and, and share some of the messages that we had and some of the research we do. So that’s why I’m going to keep doing it.

[00:34:59] Rob: Yep.

[00:35:00] Adam: Does that make sense?

[00:35:01] Rob: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:35:02] Adam: Yeah. So it’s much more about, um, and yeah, so my daughter did a presentation recently. And, um, she bombed, right? So she did it at school, went terribly. Some of the kids made fun of her and she came home and said, Oh my gosh, dad, it was so awful and I just think I’m so terrible at presentations and I’m not smart enough and all this stuff.

[00:35:27] Now, normally you’d go, don’t say that to yourself. You are smart. You don’t, and, and you kind of battle and fight them, but instead I just said to her, Hey kid, man, that must be so, you know, when I screw up a presentation, I did the exact same. I beat myself up. I say I’m crap. Why would anyone want to listen to me?

[00:35:47] And I just talked about how this was a normal thing that we go through and just empathize and talk to her about it. And then I went, but you know what I love about you kid? I said, you have a go. Like what I love is that even when things don’t turn out, you, you just, you keep having to go. You’re really resilient.

[00:36:06] And I said, Hey, Is this something you want to work on? I can help you with your presenting. Do you want to do it? And she, she said, well, can I think about it? I’m like, cool. So rather than you shouldn’t say that. So she’s going through this uncomfortable thing. And on top of it, I’m telling her your reaction is wrong and you’ve got to be more positive.

[00:36:30] Whereas the other way I go, Man, yeah, life happens and what you’re doing right now is totally normal and totally okay. And I’m here for you any way you need it. So that’s where we’re going. Yeah. But can we do this with ourselves of. Oh, wow. Okay. My, my team just made a mistake and I tend to move into a micromanagement mode and I tell myself a story of, oh, they’re hopeless and God, if a job done well as you do yourself and you kind of catch yourself and rather being.

[00:37:08] Controlled by those negative thoughts. It’s the acceptance of course, I’m feeling like that right now because they’ve made a mistake. I gave them a lot of autonomy. I’m second guessing it. But you know what? This is something that I still want to pursue and I want to develop in my leadership. So I just took a really long time, but that’s where it’s going.

[00:37:31] Yeah. Now the problem with Kevin has been, well, the problem with this is trying to teach it. And for seven or eight years, I tried to teach it and I kept screwing it up and people would kind of go, yeah, kind of get it, but I don’t. So I’ve worked for eight years trying to work out how do I teach the average person, this new movement of psychology.

[00:37:56] And I had a really interesting interaction and I was, I was interviewing a circus troupe. It just formed. Without safety gear. So the stakes are really high. And I said to them, when you walk out on stage, are you totally confident? Or do you have fear? Do you have doubt? Then they went, of course, we have fear and doubt.

[00:38:14] We’re doing this really dangerous stuff. And I said, well, how do you manage those negative thoughts and emotions? And the head of the troop, Catherine, said, do you mean Kevin? And I’m like, I don’t know who the hell Kevin is, but like, how do you manage your negative thoughts and emotion?

[00:38:29] Speaker 4: She’s

[00:38:29] Adam: like, yeah, that’s Kevin.

[00:38:30] I’m like, who the hell is Kevin? And what they done is they said, we’ve spent literally a lifetime trying to eradicate all those negative thoughts. So we saw them as bad. And one day what we realized is they’re just with us for life, but what we did is came up with a character and there’s a character in our head called Kevin and Kevin’s apologized to all the Kevins, by the way, and Kevin is the one that says, you suck, you’re going to screw up tonight, you’re going to that new catch, you’re going to drop someone.

[00:39:03] And what she said is. We realized that we can’t get rid of Kevin, but Kevin kind of gets put in the corner and he, he talks to us and we can hear it, but it’s almost like he’s a radio on in the background. And we go, yeah, thanks Kev, but you don’t get to run the show. I run the show.

[00:39:19] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[00:39:20] Adam: And I just walked away from that going, that’s it.

[00:39:23] Like that’s, that’s it. That’s what we’re trying to do here is, can we have this relationship with our brain where we can notice and accept our thoughts and emotions, but not let them control us? And that’s what this whole concept of no thanks, Kevin is, is how can we understand our brain, but almost have an objective relationship with it where we go, yeah, thanks, Kev.

[00:39:47] Like, I know you’re worried about that, but you know, I’m still going to go for this thing, or I’m still going to. You know, I know my story is that my daughter who’s being mean to me shouldn’t do that. But you know what, I’m just going to give her unconditional love anyway. And that’s what this whole concept’s about.

[00:40:06] And in the leadership space, it’s getting leaders to identify, like, what does Kevin say to you that stops you from connecting with your team or stops you from, uh, really stepping into leadership? And we talked about men and emotion before. Yeah. What Kevin says is. Don’t open up. Don’t be vulnerable. Don’t be weak.

[00:40:27] Um, you don’t need to talk to a psychologist. You’re fine. You’ll just like knuckle down and push through. It’s how do we stop this voice from controlling us?

[00:40:38] Rob: Yeah. And I imagine that everyone listening to this has a Kevin and if not everyone, it’s like the majority, right? Yeah. Probably different in different circumstances, but one for me that really shines through.

[00:40:50] And maybe it’s just my inner Kevin here, but one that I’d like to unpack a little bit more. Is around public speaking, because that’s such a fear for people is getting up in front of an audience and. For me, Kevin starts about a month before I have to get up in front of a stage and start talking and progressively gets louder right until the day before sort of thing.

[00:41:09] What I’ve sort of, I’ve tried everything, like I’ve, I’ve, I’ve tried all sorts of different tactics to stop Kevin and I’m only using this as an example now because it’s what we’re talking about. But what’s the best way for people to realize that Kevin and I call it the monkey mind, right? It’s just that chattering in the background happening.

[00:41:26] What’s the best way to say, is it just. Thanks Kevin, but not today. And then refocus your attention somewhere else, or is it just sitting with, and as ACT does, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, it’s sitting with the emotions and feeling it and going, I don’t feel great and that’s okay. Um, this is going to pass and it’s okay to just sit with it for the time being because this is a completely natural and normal emotion.

[00:41:52] Adam: Yeah, man. You just asked me a very big question. The problem with humans is we’re insanely complex and then put a group of humans together and that complexity gets exponential. I think so for people listening to this, I would just think about during the day, start to notice your narratives and your emotions.

[00:42:23] So start to notice what is that internal dialogue? So humans are thought to be the only creatures that can have thoughts about their thoughts, which is basically self awareness. So give you an example. I was really angry at someone the other day and I was storming around and acting like a complete prat and I was like, just full of rage.

[00:42:48] And then. I kind of went, okay, probably practice what I should preach. And I just went, okay, what’s actually going on for you. And I kind of sat in that moment and I didn’t get out like, you know, some incense and light it and get my yoga cushion out. I just kind of went, all right, what’s going on. And what I realized is I had let this person cross a boundary.

[00:43:11] And I hadn’t held it and I was mad at me, so I was mad that I didn’t have the courage to hold that line and they were just wanting what they wanted and I let them step across it. So it’s that self awareness to go, right? Actually, it’s not a personal thing. It’s not about them. It’s just you didn’t hold that boundary.

[00:43:35] So when you have that realization, you’re, you’re. Like you’re still mad at the person for crossing that boundary, but it’s very different to it’s all their fault. Oh my gosh, they’re so horrible. They took advantage of me. And so your reaction is going to be more measured, more realistic. So what I’d say to people is just start to really practice that self awareness of.

[00:44:00] Well, in this situation, why am I mad? And even, you know, even asking yourself that question of why am I mad at them? I’m mad at them because of this. Why does that bother me? And even just asking yourself why a few times helps you get to the real crux of it. Yeah. Start to notice What are the sort of narratives and stories that Kevin tells you that holds you back?

[00:44:26] And, and look, the whole thing about Kevin is we don’t want to make him an enemy or try and kill him off. It’s just that, cause sometimes our Kevins are driven because of something mean someone said to us when we were 10 or the fact that, you know, we lacked, uh, a role model or we didn’t get enough emotional support.

[00:44:47] Like Kevin’s there for a reason and he’s part of you, but you’ve just got to be careful about letting him take control. And that’s what happens is most people just react. So, um, Oh God, I don’t even know if I got anywhere near answering that question, but I think it’s just that. starting to practice that self awareness of what are these narratives and stories that control me?

[00:45:14] Rob: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting. Again, I think this is perhaps where, um, ancient wisdom is now being backed up by, you know, the psychology and the, the current neuroscience. Because it is a little bit of that. Let’s just be a little bit more aware, uh, and think about, um, what’s going on internally rather than, um, trying to negate it or whatever.

[00:45:34] Yeah. One of the most useful things that I’m sitting with at the moment is realizing that my thoughts are just a reflection of the past. So they are the neural pathways in my brain that have been fired, you know, over and over again that have created this really strong neural connection. And that’s where Kevin comes in for me, I think, is that it’s all those things that I’ve been thinking about and pondering and worried about in the past, and it’s just, they’re those things that keep popping up in my mind.

[00:46:00] So if I’m aware that it’s not really reflective of the current situation, it’s just my mind doing what my mind does to try and protect me in some sort of reptilian, you know, way. Yeah. Um, I’m less focused or less accepting that these thoughts are actually true or that these thoughts are actually helpful.

[00:46:18] So again, it’s that awareness piece you talk about where it’s just, just take a step back and have a look at it and go, is this really true or really reflective of what what’s going on?

[00:46:27] Adam: God, that was beautiful. Like the way you described that was awesome. I have to, I have to get that little piece because that was a beautiful way to describe it.

[00:46:36] And You know, to go back to your question that I think I just kind of stomped around and didn’t really answer is what we know from the research is that when you picture that a thought or a narrative comes from not so much something external to you, but like almost a part of your brain or a character, it has less control over you.

[00:47:02] So even I found this study the other day that. When you’re stressed, if you refer to yourself in the third person, that, that narrative has less control over you. And I know it sounds so crazy and lame, but literally like you talked about presenting, I still get nervous every time I present. And if I go, yeah, Adam’s nervous right now, Adam always gets nervous.

[00:47:28] This is just part of the process. That has less control over me than, Oh my God, I’m freaking out. I’m so nervous. I think I’m going to screw this up. And, and what was fascinating about this study is they did functional MRI scans of people saying those sorts of narratives of I’m stressed, I’m freaking out versus, you know, Adam stressed.

[00:47:50] Adam’s feeling overwhelmed. What they showed is the emotional part of the brain was far calmer when we make that statement in the third person. And what’s beautiful is there’s no corresponding increase in the cognitive parts of the brain to make that happen. So it’s not like I have to work harder to control my emotions.

[00:48:10] It’s just like when I picture that. You know, that that thing comes from the third person or from a character like Kevin, it just has less impact on us. So I suppose to answer that question from before, number one, be self aware, start to notice these things and then just go, yeah, that’s just Kevin like that’s Kevin does that because, you know, you know, I was told by a teacher that I wasn’t good at that or, you know, I had a partner that really ran me down for years.

[00:48:41] And, and I’ve developed a way of thinking about that, but that’s Kevin and that’s not serving me. And I think it’s really about in the moment, um, choosing what’s the most important behavior I can do right now. Like what’s the thing that’s going to improve my situation. And, and rather than letting Kevin control that, it’s like, yeah, I know I’ve got this going on inside my head, but in this moment, what should I be?

[00:49:09] I love that. Does that make sense?

[00:49:10] Rob: Absolutely. I love that. And it’s. I think it’s, again, it’s something we’re all experienced and grappling with. So again, just bringing awareness to it. And maybe let’s all talk about this a little bit more. Um, no one’s alone in this. Everyone sort of gets up to the podium and says, Oh, I’m the only one who’s going through this.

[00:49:27] But I’m again, grateful that you were so authentic and sharing that. Even after all these years, you still feel those nerves and Kevin’s still going off in the background for you.

[00:49:35] Adam: Can I actually, can I, I know I’ve talked so much, but can I share an example? So when COVID hit, one of my things is I grew up in a house that didn’t have a lot of money.

[00:49:46] And usually when my parents had arguments, it was over money. And there was stress there. So I have this weird relationship with money that, and cause I run my own business, I’m constantly predicting that I’m going to go out of business, right? I’ve been doing this for 25 years and I still predict I’m going to, like, everything’s going to dry up and we’re going to be poor.

[00:50:06] So when COVID hit. Like that was my Armageddon because it was, everyone just started to go, Oh, well, we’re going to put that conference on hold, or we can’t do this, or we can’t do that. And I had a proper breakdown and for the first three days I sat on the lounge in my board shorts, no shoes, no shirt. I drank wine out of the bottle and I watched Tiger King and on day three, my wife walked in and went like, is this a long term plan?

[00:50:39] Is this something that you’re going to continue? And I just went, give me one more day. I just need one more day. And after that day I went, all right, let’s start to get this thing back on track. But it wasn’t that. Oh. You know, suddenly I was happy and optimistic and that not Kevin was kicking my butt constantly.

[00:50:59] And what I was doing in that period was just making sure, because Kevin’s going, you’re going to be poor. It’s going to, you’re going to sell the house. Where are you going to live? And all this sort of stuff. And I, I, what I spent that time doing is just watching And being really aware of Kevin, but not letting him run my behavior because what did I want to do?

[00:51:21] I wanted to scream at the kids. I wanted to freak out. I wanted to throw tantrums. So what I was doing was just watching him and going, well, of course you’re freaking out because this is like, this is your hot button and Kevin’s coming up with all these things. And I was just very careful. About what action I took, because I thought I am in a state where I could do so much damage to my kids, to my wife, relationships with friends, to my business.

[00:51:52] I just have to be very careful about what action I choose. That’s how I use Kevin in probably the hardest area of my life. It was almost like a curiosity of, I’m going to watch him. I’m going to keep an eye on this guy because he’s a bit of a loose unit.

[00:52:07] Rob: Yeah.

[00:52:08] Adam: But right now I need to do this. So

[00:52:13] Rob: that’s how I describe it.

[00:52:15] And that’s great. And I’m really going to start keeping an eye on my Kevin. I love that analogy. And I think that’s a really useful thing. Adam, I’m going to have to apologize. I’m a terrible interviewer. I had 15 or 16 questions for you. I’ve got through two. Because I talk too much. No, this is, this has been amazing.

[00:52:31] Like, you know, just enjoying the conversation so much. So what’s one question I didn’t ask today that maybe you hope that I would have, and if I did ask it, how would you have responded?

[00:52:42] Adam: Oh gosh, geez. Um, Oh man, this

[00:52:49] Rob: is, this is always a stumper. So, and take your time. That’s

[00:52:53] Adam: too open ended. Okay. What would you ask?

[00:52:58] Okay. We’ve got one more question. What are you going to ask?

[00:53:00] Rob: For me, I, I probably really wanted to get into the Strive research because it’s another really interesting and completely different to what we’re completely different in a really different area. So I’d love a sort of synopsis on Strive if we can.

[00:53:17] Adam: The thing about Stripe is it looks at how our relationship with challenge and discomfort has changed over the last 10 years. And what we’ve moved to because of the happiness movement is we’ve demonized negative emotions. So we look at frustration, anger, fear as a bad thing. And we look at emotions like joy, happiness, and, you know, optimism as a good thing.

[00:53:41] And what we’ve, okay. What our research talks about is how this has become dysfunctional and we’ve started to demonize negative states and when we’re in one we think what’s wrong like this is bad I shouldn’t feel like this because I’m supposed to feel all this positive stuff. So what strives about is how do we change our relationship with struggle and challenge to be a much more functional relationship and actually how this relates to Kevin is the ability that like you described before sit there.

[00:54:11] Analyze your thoughts. Feel. Well, I feel sad or I feel despondent or I feel frustrated, but that’s okay. And can I just sit with this emotion and let it happen? But okay, but what action can I take that’s going to improve this situation? So it’s kind of the ability to really understand Kevin. We have to sit with the discomfort and, and that’s something we don’t do anymore.

[00:54:39] And actually this is the last thing I was talking to a psychologist the other day. And he said, you know, when you were younger and like, you know, a girlfriend broke up with you and broke your heart, he said, what, what would you do after that? And I said, Oh, well, I used to just lie in my bed, listen to pink Floyd and think about, well, why did that end?

[00:54:58] Why did she dump me? Why? And I would think about what went on. And he goes, that’s exactly what you should do. Like that’s a functional response. You go sit with the misery, you know, and, and learn from it. I said, the problem is today we’ve got this thing in our pocket that the moment we feel uncomfortable, we just entertain ourselves.

[00:55:18] So he said, we’re not being introspective like we used to. And that’s what strive really talks about is, can we start to have a functional relationship with challenge?

[00:55:29] Rob: That’s amazing. And I have so many follow follow up questions, but I know we’re short on time. So maybe Adam, maybe in the future I can get you back and we can talk some more because this has been such a great conversation.

[00:55:41] Oh Rob, I’ve loved this conversation. This has been awesome. Yeah,

[00:55:44] Adam: this is really cool. We’ll have to catch up offline actually. Yeah,

[00:55:47] Rob: for sure. I’d love that. I do want to thank you for the work you’re doing. Um, you’re not shying away from the hard questions. You are, you’re putting your full self out there as you’ve done in this interview today.

[00:55:57] And so I want to thank you for the work you’re doing with leaders to make people’s lives better. So thank you so much.

[00:56:03] Adam: Thanks, mate. It’s been a pleasure.

[00:56:04] Rob: If people want to connect more with you and find out a little bit more about what you are and what you’re doing, how can they do that?

[00:56:10] Adam: I just, uh, my website, dradenfraser.

[00:56:12] com, um, is probably the best place to go to. And if you’re in education, the Flourish movement, Uh, is a separate business we have that focuses on education and research and education. So yeah, that’s how you find us.

[00:56:27] Rob: And this is why I need to get you back because that was question number four, I think. So thank you again, Adam.

[00:56:32] I really appreciate it and I look forward to talking to you again. Thanks Rob. Thanks mate.