[00:01:33] Rob : Welcome Tom to the Balanced Leader podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:01:37] Tom: Thanks for inviting me, Rob.

[00:01:39] Rob : I’d love to start a little bit with your background, but before we do, I think there’s a little bit of a caveat we should probably mention here. That you and I actually work together. So we know each other, you know, for the last, I think it’s almost coming up to six months that I’ve been there.

[00:01:53] Uh, so I just wanted to throw that caveat that we are actually work colleagues as well as friends. So just putting that out there.

[00:02:01] Tom: Absolutely. Full disclosure for, for the audience here.

[00:02:04] Rob : Yeah. So starting with your background then, now that we’ve got that out of the way, I imagine listeners are probably picking up that there is a little bit of an accent in there.

[00:02:14] So why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and, uh, where you’ve come from and what you’ve been doing?

[00:02:19] Tom: Yeah, sure. So, uh, I’m originally from Canada, um, and have been down in Australia for about 12 years. I recently spent some time back in Canada, but, uh, decided for my family and I, that we loved it so much here.

[00:02:36] We just had to come back. So I’ve, I’ve mainly lived in Melbourne, but have also lived in Sydney for a couple of years as well. Uh, what I’ve been working on, what I’ve been doing, so it’s, it’s kind of been, um, a bit of a journey. So my, uh, my, my official training is in clinical and sports psychology, performance psychology.

[00:02:58] And I initially started working, uh, in sport, um, with, uh, the Canadian Sports Centre and the Australian Institute of Sport and the New South Wales Institute of Sport, uh, working with a lot of different, um, Olympic, uh, teams and training programs and things like that. I’ve also worked, uh, in healthcare. Um, so I worked as a clinical psychologist in, in the hospital sector, but then also in, um, the youth mental health sector with a program called Headspace.

[00:03:31] And kind of progressed from, from working with individuals, groups to more working with organizations. Um, so, uh, for, for a while, I, I, uh, led wellbeing strategy at Ormond College at the University of Melbourne. And then I, um, kind of made a larger transition into consulting. So again, taking that larger organizational picture.

[00:03:55] And working with organizations to improve organizational performance, well being, um, and, and more of the, the people science, um, side of things. So I guess that, that background of psychology has always been a thread through everything that I’ve done. Um, it’s just kind of transitioned from working with individuals all the way to that kind of bigger picture.

[00:04:17] Level a couple of career highlights might have been in 2018. I was a psychologist for, for the Australian winter Olympic team. Yes, we have a winter Olympic team. They’re very successful program. Really great. Really great. I got to work with there and work with the team leading into. Uh, the 2020 Tokyo games, which then got postponed to 2021 and then have just kind of continued that work in the sport world, uh, uh, in, in a few different other ways.

[00:04:48] Yeah,

[00:04:48] Rob : yeah, I’m really interested and I’m always interested to hear about when people say they work with professional athletes and sports teams, what’s the basis there for the work that you were doing with them when it comes to, was it around psychology, well being, um, performance?

[00:05:02] Tom: It’s, it’s kind of a mix of all of those things.

[00:05:05] So, um, I was, I was hired as the performance psychologist, uh, in, in most cases. Um, and, and the goal is to, to try and enhance that performance. So they’re already really great athletes. Um, they have really great skills, technical abilities, tactical abilities, but it’s really trying to. Consistently perform on demand and manage the stressors and life with, with a variety of distractions that get thrown at people and trying to just, um, develop that, that capability to narrow in that focus and deliver time and time again, going alongside of that, like everything is a performance issue.

[00:05:44] So managing the ups and downs of life and the ups and downs of. performing at high levels, you know, you, you do need to, to work on maintaining wellbeing and, and looking for various ways to do that, just like anyone else would as well.

[00:06:00] Rob : And so what does that look like? Is it a sort of off the shelf program where you give them videos and articles to read and things like that?

[00:06:09] Or is it, um, coaching one on one sort of sessions, group, group performance sessions, things like that.

[00:06:15] Tom: It’s mainly focused one on one. Um, everyone kind of has their unique performance needs, and they’re all, uh, unique people, different personalities. So, so a lot of it is entirely tailored to the individual through, uh, using different kind of assessments tools to understand where the strengths are, or maybe some gaps are that we can uplift.

[00:06:36] Um, and then working, you know, You know, to, to a plan or several goals throughout the course of a year or, um, a training period leading into, you know, say, uh, Olympic games like, like that are on right now. So that would have been, you know, a 4 year period leading into that. Um, and then obviously there’s always a team component, even if you’re an individual athlete, you’re typically part of a training group.

[00:07:01] So looking at ways that you can enhance how teams function together, how they work together, uh, how they live and travel together. So it is kind of that big picture to to individual, but and I guess there’s always looking for interesting and creative ways to engage with people as well. So, yeah, there might be books that we would collectively read together if it’s just me and individual or a group, um, if there was an interesting podcast or.

[00:07:29] If there was a program out there that was kind of interesting that appealed to what we needed and appealed to them, then we would use that. I’m a big fan of using things like technology and biofeedback, so Looking at ways that we can, um, increase heart rate variability and ways to, to self regulate. Um, even things like, uh, a program called Versus, which looks at measuring brain waves and how you can teach yourself to try and, uh, regulate through, through brain training.

[00:08:02] Rob : How does that work? I’ve never heard of versus before. Is it a wearable that you wear and then you try and do some sort of form of meditation or focus training to, to see how you’re going and then to try and improve on it?

[00:08:14] Tom: Yeah, exactly. So, uh, versus, um, the last time I used it was a wearable tech that had some sensors that run along.

[00:08:22] Your, your scalp here and then across this way, it measures brain activation in real time in response to, you know, what you’re watching or, um, if you, if you’re playing a game and then based on kind of your own profile, you might need to, you know, elevate yourself or in most cases, uh, you know, kind of calm yourself down and then you do that by playing a game and then.

[00:08:50] You receive feedback based on the performance in the game. And then you learn to regulate yourself, uh, in, in response to that. So it is that feedback loop that then teaches you, Hey, what did I do in that moment to be able to calm and settle myself down? Um, and how can I do that again? And then how can I do that out on.

[00:09:10] You know, the field of play.

[00:09:11] Rob : Yeah. Yeah. Sounds fantastic. I’m definitely going to check that one out. So how did you make the switch then from working with athletes and teams into organizational psychology and well being?

[00:09:23] Tom: It was definitely a gradual transition over time. Um, there was a couple of opportunities that, that came up to, to work with some different, uh, companies, some different organizations.

[00:09:34] And in essence, it’s a lot of the same stuff. Uh, you know, at the end of the day, you’re, you’re dealing with people, you’re dealing with group dynamics, you’re dealing with an external environments and they all interact together. People love that concept of high performance. And you hear that a lot in the workplace.

[00:09:52] And. And, you know, understanding what that looks like at some of the elite levels and taking those lessons and then trying to apply that in the work context, um, it actually fits really nicely, uh, you know, work is a performance and there’s a lot of things that that go into that and you want to kind of understand at an individual and operational and then a strategic level of what kind of factors are at play and how can we work to create this environment that.

[00:10:23] really allows people to, to be themselves and, and thrive in their roles and how can we best support them to do, to do that.

[00:10:31] Rob : Yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting. So how would you define organizational wellbeing then? And why do you think it’s important in modern businesses that we have things like organizational wellbeing and sustainable high performance?

[00:10:46] Tom: Yeah. Well, being is an interesting, um, term or, or topic because it’s, it’s almost become this umbrella term that means so many different things to so many different people.

[00:10:58] Um, you know, I did, uh, a search recently and, and, you know, there’s all frameworks that come back. So for me, um, I, I kind of go back to my doctoral training in, in subjective wellbeing and life satisfaction and happiness and workplace wellbeing.

[00:11:16] Um, is, is kind of like this combination of, of positive and negative affects. So what are those a positive, uh, emotions, happiness, contempt, negative. So it might be anger, sadness, those kinds of things. Um, and then job satisfaction. So are you satisfied in your job and what you’re doing and what you’re achieving?

[00:11:35] So, so that is kind of one frame to, to workplace wellbeing. You can also talk about things like, uh, physical wellbeing, psychological, uh, financial. You know, those kinds of things, those, those are aspects that fit within that as well. And then there’s kind of like that holistic picture of the organization.

[00:11:54] So something like, uh, uh, a Berk Litwin model approach, where you look at the strategic operational and individual factors, you know, things like strategy and culture, you know, what are the systems and, and, uh, policies and structures that are in place. And then how does that relate to the individual motivation and have fit with, within the role.

[00:12:15] How does that together, uh, lead to organizational performance? So it’s kind of like those three things are overlaid to give you a snapshot of organizational well being.

[00:12:27] Rob : Yeah. So what do you think of the key factors then that contribute to employee well being? At an organizational level. So not just for individuals, but across the entire organization.

[00:12:38] Tom: Yeah. So I think it’s definitely that that combination of, uh, you know, the people call them drivers or factors. So things at the strategic level, looking at strategy, leadership, culture, what does our vision look like? What is our mission? Do we have a clear sense of what that is? And do we know what that looks like as modeled by our leaders?

[00:13:00] Yeah. Those factors kind of transform the organization and they permeate kind of across everything that we do. And then how does that then get translated at the operational level? So what do our systems look like? Um, you know, how, how do we actually do the work and what are the structures look like that, that enable us to align to what that mission, vision and values look like.

[00:13:23] Um, and then how does that translate down to individual motivations and how are we making sure we’re taking care of individual needs and aligning to people’s values? Um, and cumulatively, how does that then translate to performance looking kind of more in that psychological, uh, social and psychological safety or health at work?

[00:13:46] There are approximately 13 factors that closely relate to those pieces at the strategic operational individual level that really kind of holistically make up that, that safety at work. And those are kind of the targets that we want to measure and pay attention to, to, to create that. Environment that safer people and creates an environment that they can be successful in.

[00:14:14] Rob : Yeah, you’ve mentioned a term there that’s quite hot at the moment for one of a bit of a word, which is psychological safety. A lot of people are talking about it. There’s been some stuff in the media about it. What is psychological safety and why is it important for us in the workplace?

[00:14:33] Tom: Yeah, so there’s probably two, again, there’s always these different terms that are out there.

[00:14:37] So there’s psychological safety, uh, and I can’t recall the researcher’s name off the top of my head, uh, but it’s, it’s like that concept of being able to be yourself at work, be able to put ideas out there, be able to ask for feedback, to provide feedback, to, uh, critically evaluate things. Um, and, and not fear reprisal, not fear that you’re damaging yourself, your career, your job, um, that you, that you can contribute in that way.

[00:15:06] So that’s kind of that side of psychological safety. Then there’s more of the, the, the workplace health and safety angle. And, and that is really about creating an environment that is safe for people to, to work in and be successful in. But also that mitigates any potential harms, um, and works proactively to, to continuously improve that environment, um, for, for people to be, to be safe in, um, and, and it comes back to those typically those 13 areas.

[00:15:40] So things like rewards and recognition. Leadership role, clarity, expectations, civility and respect in the workplace. Uh, it is a wide range of of areas. Um, so it’s not necessarily just, you know, things focused on, say, reducing and mitigating bullying harassment in the workplace. It’s also a bigger picture thing.

[00:16:03] Like, what does your culture look like? And, you know, are we engaging employees in their work,

[00:16:09] Rob : these things that we can track and measure over time? And is it important to be able to track and measure these things? So we get an idea of where we are now. And I suppose aspirationally where we want to go to in the future.

[00:16:22] Tom: Yeah, absolutely. So there’s, there’s a wide variety of different ways and tools that already exist out there that are backed by research. So, so you can measure things like Uh, engagement, employee engagement is kind of, uh, it’s an outcome of a number of other factors that have led to that point, but it is kind of a nice marker that gives you an indication of where people are at in the, in the organization.

[00:16:45] You can also measure any of those, uh, different factors that, that I’ve kind of alluded to or mentioned. So, like, you can measure culture, you should measure your culture. Um, and get a sense of where it’s at and you can track that over time. Um, you know, kind of that workplace wellbeing where I talked about positive and negative affect and job satisfaction.

[00:17:06] Those are things that you can also measure as well. So it does kind of give you that nice yardstick of, of where you’re at. And highlight some of the areas where you might want to improve in and, and then take some action to, to figure out how you can do that, how you can work with your, your employees and staff to, to be able to take that on and, and what that action might look like.

[00:17:29] Rob : In your experience, which area is the hardest in organizations to, to track or not sorry to track the wellbeing, but. Where do they struggle most with their well being at an organizational level?

[00:17:39] Tom: Uh, it’s, it’s wide ranging. So every, every place is different. Um, you know, I read, uh, um, I think it was the people at work, uh, report, um, that has come back recently.

[00:17:51] One of the areas is, is, is, Where a lot of claims come, workplace claims come through is, is bullying and harassment, which is surprising, um, given the awareness around that and the damage that that kind of, uh, behavior and actions can cause. Uh, so that, that still happens and it’s pretty common in terms of the statistics and where the claims have been identified, but there’s, there’s all sorts of areas that can be kind of challenging.

[00:18:20] Even having things like very clear role descriptions and clear expectations. Um, I can recall working with a organization recently where their, their employee reviews is basically the only mechanism to receive feedback. And it’s almost just kind of checked off just to kind of pass things through rather than.

[00:18:41] Provide an opportunity to give really clear feedback and understand where people are at in terms of their expectations, which is entirely important part of, you know, understanding how you’re doing in your organization. Uh, what’s expected of you? Are you meeting these things? Um, because otherwise people just kind of operate without a clue and it’s very hard to perform to your capability.

[00:19:03] If you don’t know what you’re performing. Two or four.

[00:19:06] Rob : Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and are there things that organizations are doing inadvertently, perhaps, that is, that is harming employee wellbeing?

[00:19:15] Tom: Um, I think, I don’t wanna say that they’re necessarily harming their wellbeing, but it’s not, it’s not definitely not helping.

[00:19:23] Rob : Yeah.

[00:19:24] Tom: So things like not having clear job, uh, expectations in roles. I think another kind of area that tends to be the focus is focusing on the individual rather than the holistic environment. The things that we’ve kind of spoken about already, that is very much at an organizational level. So when you hear things of, well, let’s implement a mindfulness program or implement a resilience training program that is entirely focused at the individual.

[00:19:54] And there’s been a number of meta analyses that have come back. Uh, recently saying, you know, these, these really aren’t that helpful for people at work because it’s not necessarily their resilience level. That is the issue. It is the environment that they interact in. That is, that is the issue. So I think the.

[00:20:13] The most unhelpful thing an organization could do is only focus at the individual rather than the holistic environment that they work in.

[00:20:22] Rob : Yeah, and I suppose one of the things that organizations perhaps, and maybe less so now, but maybe previously have been really focused on productivity and You know, smash network and let’s just, you know, get things done.

[00:20:36] So how do organizations balance wanting to do that, wanting to be productive, wanting to get their, their goals achieved with employee well being as well.

[00:20:45] Tom: So here’s the amazing thing when you focus on the organization and look at these variables and improve them, your productivity actually increases.

[00:20:56] People work harder, they work better, they’re more engaged, they spend less time away from work in terms of absenteeism, there’s less turnover, people hang around longer, they promote your brand. So, these are all metrics and variables that your insurance companies definitely measure, uh, we measure, uh, we pay attention to these things because, uh, when you do create that sticky, healthy environment, People want to be a part of it, and they want to work for it.

[00:21:29] Rob : So based on that, there’s this really another hot topic at the moment, which is working from home. So how does that come in when you’re looking at trying to balance productivity and employee well being as well?

[00:21:41] Tom: It’s really interesting. Um, so looking at some of the studies, it’s, it’s been a little bit mixed, uh, in terms of the actual outcomes.

[00:21:49] So there’s some studies that are saying productivity is higher and some studies that saying productivity is lower, um, there’s a couple of variables that seem to play a role in that. So that might be the, the actual kind of, uh, age of the, of the person who is working. Younger people definitely have, uh, an inclination to, to work at home versus people who are maybe a little bit more, uh, older experienced in their career.

[00:22:15] Um, the type of work and the type of organization plays a role in that. But if you look at self reported information, polls, uh, different things like that, people are, are overwhelmingly saying I feel more productive. It seems a little bit mixed, but it’s, it sounds like people are saying that they’re feeling more productive at home.

[00:22:40] There’s also a whole other host of things that go along with working from home. So, uh, there’s been some, um, uh, data that has suggested people feel a little bit disconnected and a little bit lonely because you’re not having that in person social interaction. But there’s also costs associated with going into the office that now employers are having to look at, um, around, you know, if I do want people coming back office, there is a cost associated with that for my employees.

[00:23:09] And are they going to be okay with that and want to take that on rather than work from work from home where they don’t have to. You know, pay for parking and travel and the commute time associated with that. Also on the flip side of that, people kind of need some time to decompress and let go of the work environment from transitioning from, from, you know, working during the day and then taking breaks.

[00:23:35] You know, step back into their personal life, having that, that kind of time to disconnect and reset before you, you know, walk through the door again, um, can be quite helpful as well.

[00:23:46] Rob : So, Tom, I feel like you’re kind of sitting on the fence a little bit here, mate. I reckon what you’re saying is it’s about balance.

[00:23:53] Is that what you’re saying? Like, it could be perhaps a little bit of yes and maybe a little bit of no. Perhaps we shouldn’t be in the office all the time and perhaps we shouldn’t be working from home all the time. Maybe it’s balance. Maybe it’s balance.

[00:24:03] Tom: Yeah, so you definitely called me out there, Rob. Um,

[00:24:08] Rob : so I might,

[00:24:08] Tom: but being the, the, the researcher scientist, I am, I tend to look at, you know, what the stats are, what the data is kind of showing.

[00:24:18] It seems mixed, but, but there are clear benefits for people working at home. And there seem to be some benefits still to working at home. In the office, that ability to connect with people personally, um, and and then also there’s there’s benefits from the employer side of things, too. So. You know, having people, uh, in the office collaborating together and, and also, you know, they pay huge amounts of rents on, on their office buildings.

[00:24:44] So I’m sure they’re wanting to get something out of that as well. But, uh, no, I think there definitely is a balance to that. Um, I know personally for me, I like to have that mix. Sometimes it’s nice to, to work at home and have that flexibility and, and not necessarily just telework. So you. Which is working just nine to five on your computer as if you were in the office, but being a little bit more flexible so you can have that work life balance that people are, are trying to strive for.

[00:25:13] Rob : Yeah. And I think for me, it comes down to agency as well. I think people want to have, I feel like they’re in control a little bit and perhaps not be dictated one way or the other. They want to be like, well, maybe I want to do this and this, this, um, structure works best for me. If I do. Two days in the office and three days from home or, or whatever that looks like.

[00:25:31] So I think agency for people’s wellbeing is really important.

[00:25:35] Tom: Absolutely. So there’s a very famous theory called self determination theory, and it focuses really on three areas, autonomy. So how much control do you have over your, your environments or your workplace or yourself personally? Um, how well can you relate to other people and can you feel competent and have a sense of self efficacy that you’re good at doing things, um, when you give people more autonomy.

[00:25:58] It typically is associated with enhanced motivation, um, so they have, are able to exert more control over their environments and potentially be more successful in what they’re doing and have that positive affect associated.

[00:26:12] Rob : Yeah, absolutely. So what are some of the innovative approaches you’ve seen organizations take to promote well being within their own organization?

[00:26:20] Tom: Um, it’s an interesting question because I, I don’t think I’ve seen it done amazingly. Well, uh, you know, you often hear things about ping pong tables and snacks and, and those kinds of things. And, and like, those are respite pieces. Um, and, and often designed just to keep you at work longer.

[00:26:41] Rob : Yeah,

[00:26:41] Tom: I have seen a couple of pieces around, um, Uh, almost like rest period.

[00:26:47] So quarterly or end of year where the company takes an approach where everyone gets time off to to rest and reset. I’ve also seen things where companies might be providing some kind of financial support once a month so that people can go and do things that create balance or meaning in their life outside of work.

[00:27:08] Uh, which is really important. Those are kind of interesting things that I’ve seen happening. Um, but the vast majority of approaches really seem to be focused on individual resilience. Uh, or providing almost like a baseline cover of, uh, employee and employee assistance program, um, which is that kind of individual counseling or resources that that people might be able to self paced through that that seems to be where the vast majority of resource or time is focused rather than the holistic view of the organization.

[00:27:40] Rob : Yeah, so they’re the on the proactive side. Um, and I think that’s obviously where we want to spend most of our time as an organization working on proactive ways that we can reduce stress and burnout for people before it even happens. So let’s build up their resilience. Let’s build up their well being.

[00:27:55] But what happens when we get to that point where. Uh, and this may already be the case for some organizations or for some people where they’re already at the other end, where they’re already at stress, where they’re already at perhaps facing burnout if they’re not already at burnout. So what do we do then?

[00:28:11] How do we, how do we best support people then?

[00:28:13] Tom: Yeah, so obviously we’ve heard a lot about burnout, um, just kind of working through the pandemic and then dealing with the aftermath of that. Burnout’s been happening for a long time. We actually would have a look at that in sport as well. It’s really focused on three things.

[00:28:31] So it’s kind of like that emotional, physical exhaustion, uh, that devaluing, uh, what you do in a sense of cynicism around it, and then not feeling very conf confident or capable in, in what you’re doing. And, and that really is a product of just overload, um, being overworked in, in that environment. Um, and, and what needs to be focused on is that interaction between worker and the environment.

[00:28:57] And, and it is sorting out the environment, uh, and the factors within it so that people are not, uh, put in that position again. To, to kind of work through burnout, um, you know, there, there’s, it’s, it’s basically a rest and recovery and then coming back into that environment that has been modified, um, so people can be successful.

[00:29:20] So looking at. You know, how you manage workload, how you basically look at the resources that people are given internally, but also externally from the, um, from the workplace, the environment and and then what are the demands that are being asked so we can modify the resources that we give people, you can also modify the demands that are being put on people.

[00:29:42] You know, constantly, chronically overloading people, you’re going to end up in a burnout scenario, um, and you don’t fix that by adding a little bit of resilience. You fix that by modifying the environment.

[00:29:54] Rob : So if someone’s listening to this and they’re experiencing burnout at the moment, what advice would you give them directly to what’s the next steps for them?

[00:30:03] Should they. Um, immediately seek help. Should they try and modify their, modify their environment? What’s the best thing they can do to look after themselves?

[00:30:12] Tom: I think in that scenario, if you think that definitely applies to you and you’re feeling that way, hopefully you have a decent relationship with your manager and you can bring that up.

[00:30:22] As a manager, you need to be concerned about people’s Well, being you don’t have to take on their crisis, but, you know, you need to look after your people. Um, so hopefully, uh, you know, you can bring that up to your manager and look for ways to, to try and modify that environment. Maybe some of the strategies that would be focused on us was taking some time off, taking some, some annual leave to be able to rest, recover and recharge and do some things that give you that, that positive sense of self.

[00:30:52] Um, Self efficacy, but then also positive affect your you’re getting rewarded by things in your environment that you enjoy. Uh, then the 2nd piece to that is, you know, how can we work to to prevent this from happening again? How can we better manage the workload? How can we? Uh, what is being asked to maybe we need to upskill, um, because the demands of the workplace changed following the pandemic.

[00:31:18] And, and, and now we’ve put you in different positions that we necessarily haven’t equipped you with, or maybe we need to clarify expectations. So it is, it’s really kind of individual. Um, but it is that interaction between person and environment.

[00:31:34] Rob : Yeah. I’ve been talking with a lot of people recently who are struggling with retention and recruitment.

[00:31:41] So trying to find good talent and then keeping them, what sort of role does organizational wellbeing play in that space?

[00:31:49] Tom: Places who have a clear or places organizations that have a clear, uh, value proposition. So What, what do we stand for? What are we about? And, you know, what, what do we deliver for employees?

[00:32:03] Wellbeing fits within that. So, you know, if you have a positive, proactive, um, and engaged culture, that is a factor that makes your workplace sticky. In fact, a toxic culture drives people away from you. And that is the, um, some of the data has shown that is the The number one factor why people leave in turnover from organizations.

[00:32:25] So that would be something to focus on. Um, you know, short term, uh, what, what seems to attract and keep people initially is that material goods offerings. So what kind of technology do you provide? What kind of remuneration policies and practices do you have in place? And then longer term, how do we connect people with meaning?

[00:32:45] So what you’re doing, is it valued? Is it connected to a bigger purpose? Do you understand how you fit within the larger picture of the organization and how you contribute? Um, and then what kind of opportunities are there? Is there, uh, a way to progress? Is there a way to learn and grow within yourself and the organization?

[00:33:05] Those are kind of the factors that, uh, drive retention and, and make your place. Uh, sticky people hang around, um, but also attract people to come as well.

[00:33:16] Rob : It sounds like there’s a lot of factors at play here. So I’m really curious to know when, when you get called Dr. Tom, we need you to come in and check out our organization.

[00:33:25] Where do you start? Like how, what’s when you walk into the organization and you see that, okay, we’ve got some issues here. What’s the first thing that you would do?

[00:33:33] Tom: Yeah, I think the first thing is just to, to get a sense of, of what’s happening with, with the people. So just starting conversations and asking.

[00:33:41] Some kind of really key questions around culture around some of the practices and what kind of behaviors and things are people observing just to get a sense. And then we might implement some kind of diagnostics. So we might look at the organization as a whole and then be able to pinpoint and start to pinpoint based on feedback from.

[00:34:01] You know, senior leaders based on feedback from the staff as a whole. Um, what kind of things are driving performance or driving engagement within the organization? What, what makes it go well and what kind of things are not contributing or are not making a positive impact. And then we might start to look at those kinds of factors a lot closer, um, you know, through maybe some focus groups and using that data to drive, uh, where we focus in on and in drive decision making.

[00:34:33] Rob : I imagine that some organizations try and do this internally and maybe they’ve made a couple of mistakes when they’re trying to implement their own wellbeing programs. What are the, some of those common mistakes you see when organizations try to implement the programs?

[00:34:49] Tom: I, I think that the, the kind of common mistakes that I’ve come across is one focusing on the individual rather than the holistic view of the organization.

[00:35:00] So that’s probably a common one. I think probably trying to do too much straight away. Um, it is, uh, an ongoing process of, of reflection, uh, measurement refinements and, and continuing to, to improve those actions. So, you know, focusing in on what matters the most, um, we do that using different, uh, data analyses.

[00:35:25] Uh, to, to kind of drive where, where we focus, but focusing on what matters the most, what’s going to have the biggest impact and then trying to take steps to, to focus on one thing and do a good job of it. Another, uh, area that might be a focus is really folk, um, really engaging with staff and bringing them along the journey and providing them with.

[00:35:47] An opportunity to have a voice and provide input on what those initiatives look like, what should be prioritized and, and what do those actions actually translate to on the ground? So almost having your, your champions or your group, um, or are leading the charge. In helping to make those decisions, rather than just the organization imposing more things on on staff.

[00:36:13] The other thing that comes to mind is relating back to that. Those transformational factors within the organization. So, you know, are the leaders in the organization? Are they backing these initiatives? Are they walking the talk? Are they. Living and breathing, what they’re saying is important. And are they freeing up resources to, to make these initiatives or these actions come to life?

[00:36:36] Uh, if, if that kind of support isn’t there, it’s, it’s not really going to have a mileage to, to go, to go anywhere.

[00:36:43] Rob : So how important is the role that leaders play in fostering that culture of well being within their own organization?

[00:36:51] Tom: It’s definitely a key factor when, when thinking about, you know, any kind of initiative in, in a workplace, it is essential to have that top cover from, from leadership to, to say, Hey, this is important.

[00:37:04] This is something that will be communicated across the organization. We have a alignment. We think. It’s important. And we show by actually modeling the behaviors that it’s important. And then the crucial part of freeing up resources, whether it’s time, whether it’s people, whether it’s finance. To, to be able to take that initiative and actually make it come to life.

[00:37:27] Um, those are really key transformational pieces of, of a wellbeing initiative.

[00:37:32] Rob : That’s great. Tom, I’m going to ask you to get your crystal ball out here for me, mate. So what trends do you foresee in organizational wellbeing into the sort of, you know, near future, I suppose, and even longer out, maybe even five years, if you can think of them and how can we prepare for them?

[00:37:49] Tom: Uh, well, I think some of the trends, uh, we’re, we’re already kind of seeing them play out. So mental health, psychological health and safety are becoming more and more prominent in, in the workplace. And organizations are, are more likely going to be held to account. Uh, then, then not, they are liable for, um, making sure people are safe at work and work is not causing harm in the workplace and, and harming their life outside of the workplace.

[00:38:19] And there are a number of, uh, things kind of, I keep an eye on what’s kind of happening in Canada all the time. Um, and, and the trends are very similar to, to here in Australia that, uh, the duty of care that, that the workplace has only increasing. And so it is prudent to, to have a strategy in place to, to demonstrate your commitment to, to making sure that people can.

[00:38:43] Thrive at work. Um, so I think that’s just a trend that’s going to continue to grow. I did a note on, um, I think it’s a people at work survey, uh, that the claims for for mental health, uh, in the workplace are growing the fastest growing claim area that’s only going to continue to increase. Um, there was a report that came out that said conflict management, uh, among the leadership.

[00:39:10] Is a key skill that will be important moving forward in the workplace as a lot of different things. A lot of external factors come into play political views, personal views, all those kind of things. So, so I, I see that kind of, uh, kind of interacting together, uh, as as a future trend. Um, I think looking at how we.

[00:39:33] Um, create that employee value proposition is only going to be more and more important moving forward. You mentioned the, the fist fight that that’s taking place over talent. That, that is out there.

[00:39:45] Rob : Mm-Hmm.

[00:39:46] Tom: and, and there’s more choice than ever before. So not only do you compete in Australia, but you’re actually competing internationally now.

[00:39:52] ’cause workers can work remotely for a company that’s in the UK or the us. And there are a lot of attractive factors that go alongside that. So understanding what value you actually provide for employee, employees, articulating that, understanding that, and looking at creative ways to, to entice and engage people.

[00:40:15] I read a, another report recently. Uh, uh, workplace that are considering housing options for employees so that they can be closer to the office so they don’t have to commute as far.

[00:40:27] Um, so being really creative for, uh, caregiving allowances that allow people to come, uh, or, or work, come into the office or work remotely.

[00:40:36] Um, and so that their families are looked after. Uh, so looking at creative ways. More than just people punching clocks and just paying money into the bank account.

[00:40:46] Rob : Yeah, and it sounds as much as the responsibilities on the individual, there’s also going to be a responsibility for leaders. So leaders really need to stay informed and get educated around mental health and well being, um, what their responsibilities are and the best ways to be proactive to stop people getting to burnout or to having mental health issues.

[00:41:06] Tom: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, That that’s kind of part of the process is, is understanding, um, what, what that looks like from an organizational point of view, health, health and well being at work, what, what are our liabilities? What do we at the bare minimum have to cover? Um, and then thinking like, what do we want to be as an organization?

[00:41:26] You know, uh, if, if we do focus on well being of people, there’s a lot of great benefits for the organization that, that, um, that can be achieved through that, there’s an interesting, um, calculation that, uh, has come back and said for every dollar that you invest in employee health and well being, the return is 1, 000.

[00:41:46] 2. 30. Um, so that, that kind of goes into the calculation when we look at creating, uh, business cases to, to these types of initiatives.

[00:41:56] Rob : And it sounds like money well spent, right? So any money that you spend on your people, particularly when it comes to their mental health and wellbeing is money well spent.

[00:42:03] Tom: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s, it’s not just about the return for the, for the organization as well, and the productivity and retention and all those kinds of things. It’s, it’s, It’s also, um, you know, being a good person or a good organization looking after your people.

[00:42:19] Rob : Yeah.

[00:42:19] Tom: You know, when you think of strategy, it’s the internal resources that are typically driving your competitive advantage.

[00:42:27] And so that, you know, your, your people are your most valuable resource.

[00:42:32] Rob : Absolutely. Tom, what’s one question I didn’t ask you today that maybe you’d hope that I would have. And if I did ask it, what would your response be?

[00:42:42] Tom: Um, honestly, Rob, I feel like I’ve been in a, an exam here and I had about a thousand questions to look through and answer.

[00:42:49] I, I honestly, I don’t think there’s one particular question that, that stands out. Um, I mean, the, the, probably the key theme is like, what’s the most important takeaway. And. Most important takeaway is, is think holistically, think organizationally. Um, yes, individual resilience and things, those, those do matter, but it is the holistic organizational focus that is.

[00:43:16] The environment that that really drives well being, and if we can do a better job with creating a productive, uh, constructive culture, making sure people are receiving feedback, they know what they need to do. They know how to get the resources to be able to do what they need to do and can do it in a safe, supportive way, uh, then, you know, I think that’s a really good thing.

[00:43:39] You know, we’re going to have a high performing organization.

[00:43:42] Rob : Yeah, absolutely. Tom, if people want to connect more with you and find out more about what you’re doing, how can they do that?

[00:43:49] Tom: Uh, definitely reach out, uh, on LinkedIn and, and shoot me a message and I can get back to you then. Um, hopefully the, the podcast will be up there too.

[00:43:57] So, so hopefully, uh, I can connect off that, um, or reach out through the office at Gurrigan.

[00:44:04] Rob : Thank you, Tom. This has been a wonderful conversation. I’ve really enjoyed this, mate. Thank you for all the work you’re doing out there with leaders. Uh, and thank you for being a great colleague as well.

[00:44:13] Tom: Thanks, Rob.

[00:44:13] Really appreciate the opportunity.